Unlisted Stove Liability? Installation CO. Just Flaked Out

Modern and vintage hand fired coal stove are similar to a wood stove and in some cases can burn either. They need to be regulated and fed by hand usually every 12 to 24 hours depending on your usage. They require no power to operate making them ideal for rural settings with long power outages.
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UncleDoDat
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Joined: Sat. Jun. 21, 2014 11:40 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: King-O-Heat
Baseburners & Antiques: Herald #6
Coal Size/Type: Nut & Stove Size
Other Heating: Natural Gas
Location: Dover De

Post Mon. Jul. 21, 2014 9:25 pm

Ok scratch the last post. All my concerns were answer by
lighting
Must have came while I was addressing them. That was cool.
Lightning wrote:The white surround around the fireplace. Is that all wood? If so it may need to be replaced with something incombustible so you can get the stove in closer to the fireplace. You probably don't want it 3 feet out from the fireplace right?:
Yes that is wood. And you are so right I would like it close to the fire place as possible. I addressed this issues in another post and was told to inquire about a heat shield being installed on the heater. Which Dough over at Barnstable says he doesn't do

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Berlin
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal
Location: Buffalo/Adirondacks, NY

Post Mon. Jul. 21, 2014 9:31 pm

UncleDoDat wrote:Ok scratch the last post. All my concerns were answer by
lighting
Must have came while I was addressing them. That was cool.
Lightning wrote:The white surround around the fireplace. Is that all wood? If so it may need to be replaced with something incombustible so you can get the stove in closer to the fireplace. You probably don't want it 3 feet out from the fireplace right?:
Yes that is wood. And you are so right I would like it close to the fire place as possible. I addressed this issues in another post and was told to inquire about a heat shield being installed on the heater. Which Dough over at Barnstable says he doesn't do
time to break out the wetsaw and the marble/granite of your choice and make a nice, non-combustable surround/mantle. or hire a mason to draw it up and do it. yes thimble above the fireplace is the neatest and easiest way to do it.
Burning western Pennsylvania Bituminous in WNY using model 77 stoker furnace. BITUMINOUS equiptment: 2 hand fired stoves of my own design, Many Combustioneer Model 77 stokers, stokermatic furnace, Many Will-Burt stokers, & and Two Iron firemen.

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Lightning
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Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Overmodified/Bored out Clayton 1537
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Awesome Size
Location: Olean, NY

Post Mon. Jul. 21, 2014 9:40 pm

Berlin is the chimney God around here.. :D. I'd say that's great advice!

Or as Bob would say
The Main flueologist
Or was that chimspecailist haha

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freetown fred
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut
Location: Freetown,NY 13803

Post Mon. Jul. 21, 2014 10:24 pm

Orrrrr, if your stove outlet hole will go into the fireplace --minimum straight in, optimal at a slight upward angel. DJ, where are you & some pix of your install? It'll be a lot easier to help ya out when ya get the stove where it belongs & post pix of all sides, hearth, etc.
"A people that values it's privileges above it's principals, soon loses both"--Dwight D Eisenhower

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UncleDoDat
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Posts: 217
Joined: Sat. Jun. 21, 2014 11:40 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: King-O-Heat
Baseburners & Antiques: Herald #6
Coal Size/Type: Nut & Stove Size
Other Heating: Natural Gas
Location: Dover De

Post Mon. Jul. 21, 2014 11:24 pm

yeah I probably should cross one bridge at a time. When Mr. Herald arrives I will post pics.

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wsherrick
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size
Location: High In The Poconos

Post Mon. Jul. 21, 2014 11:26 pm

Chicanery like this makes me angry. You are dealing with a someone who is trying to take advantage of you. To be blunt, get rid of them.
First of all, stoves made before 1980 are EXEMPT from the requirement to be UL listed.
Talk to Emery at Antique Stove Hospital and tell him that I sent you over to him. He is helpful, friendly and knows everything there is to know about installing one of these stoves.
Next of all, don't freak out. Everything is going to be fine. Call a regular chimney sweep to put in the stove. Get one that isn't trying 1: to sell you another stove and 2: trying to con you into a stainless steel liner. If they try either of these stunts get rid of them too.
It's not that hard for crying out loud. They are putting you through unnecessary stress.
Take a deep breath and proceed with calmness and a determined purpose.

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warminmn
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite
Other Heating: wood and a little LP
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes, not 10,000

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 12:38 am

The 36" requirement is to combustable materials on walls. this is cut in half to 18", legally, by the use of any type of heat shield between the wall and the stove. It doesnt really matter if the heat shield is boughten or if you stick an old piece of roofing tin or cement board between the two. Space at least 1" from the wall. if the wall is brick or not combustable you can have the stove as close as you want. Single stove pipe needs 18" between it and combustables and again you can cut that in half with shields.

You don't need a floor protector/pad to stick out 36" in all directions. That was silly of him to say. It is going to vary between stoves and I'll let the antique stove experts give you that distance. you do want the whole area under the stove and pipe to have protection.

Yes you want the pipe to slope upwards all the way until it goes straight up. Your existing chimney may work for that if your new stove's pipe exits the stove near the bottom. the more it slopes the better but even a little slope would probably work. But if you put in a thimble it may be better too.

Dont let whoever inspects it all to complicate your install too much. Especially if they mention a liner as has been said.
I'm just an old chunk of coal now Lord but I'm gonna be a diamond some day - Billy Joe Shaver

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UncleDoDat
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Posts: 217
Joined: Sat. Jun. 21, 2014 11:40 am
Hand Fed Coal Stove: King-O-Heat
Baseburners & Antiques: Herald #6
Coal Size/Type: Nut & Stove Size
Other Heating: Natural Gas
Location: Dover De

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 2:38 am

O.K. Guys as you can see I have been thrown through a loop and I'm in desperate need of clarification. I need to know what else will I need to do to have Mr Herald installed properly and as close to the mantel as possible. So I was told in an earlier post that my wooden mantel would have to be replaced if I want to put Mr. Herald closer to the fireplace opening. O.K. so I'm researching the cheapest, yet safest option for replacing the wood mantel. I've come up with stone or ceramic. Ceramic being the cheapest. Is ceramic fireplace mantel practical for this or should I stick to stone. Or can someone recommend something cost effective, but safe.

Secondly, I'm thinking that if the mantel is not replaced with a non-combustible the 36' mark will over shoot the floor hearth. This is the 36' mark
20140722_022338.jpg
However, after measuring, even at 18 inches away Mr. Herald would over shoot the original floor hearth.
20140722_015855.jpg
Moreover, I'm thinking is it worth it to replace the mantel to gain 18in. Unless I am unclear about the clearance details of non-combustible mantels. Does zero clearance mean I could put Mr. Herald as close to a non combustible mantel. The floor hearth itself is only 21 1/2 inches
20140722_015225.jpg
So I assume that I'll be needing some type of hearth pad.

Lastly, the stainless steel liner? So I don't need one? Is this the case whether we go through the fireplace or through the thimble. If so how do I get out of the installation for it and why are they insisting that I need one? What all is needed? And whats not?

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plumb-r
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Location: Nottingham,Pa

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 6:18 am

Sounds like your installer didn't know he could use shields to cut distance from combustibles. But he did have distance right .He has a business to protect and you have to remember he has a inspector and insurance company he has to deal with. You are getting a inspection on your install for insurance reasons aren't you? :shock:

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freetown fred
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut
Location: Freetown,NY 13803

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 7:04 am

p-r, sorry to disagree but, the installer knew squat about nothing but making $$$ or he would of offered options as far as clearance or seemingly much of anything else.. I'm not one that pats people on the ass for being stupid or greedy. This man has a simple install that can be dealt with by a sweep PLUS info available on this FORUM concerning insurance issues--we've all been there. Just an old coal burning farmers thoughts.
"A people that values it's privileges above it's principals, soon loses both"--Dwight D Eisenhower

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northernmainecoal
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Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 30-95
Baseburners & Antiques: Herald Baseheater #6
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Nut/Stove
Location: Aroostook County, Maine

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 7:18 am

UncleDoDat wrote:O.K. Guys as you can see I have been thrown through a loop and I'm in desperate need of clarification. I need to know what else will I need to do to have Mr Herald installed properly and as close to the mantel as possible. So I was told in an earlier post that my wooden mantel would have to be replaced if I want to put Mr. Herald closer to the fireplace opening. O.K. so I'm researching the cheapest, yet safest option for replacing the wood mantel. I've come up with stone or ceramic. Ceramic being the cheapest. Is ceramic fireplace mantel practical for this or should I stick to stone. Or can someone recommend something cost effective, but safe.
Ceramic is practical for the fireplace mantel, it's really all about personal preference on what you think looks best. As long as you are using a non-combustable material.
UncleDoDat wrote:Secondly, I'm thinking that if the mantel is not replaced with a non-combustible the 36' mark will over shoot the floor hearth. This is the 36' mark
20140722_022338.jpg
However, after measuring, even at 18 inches away Mr. Herald would over shoot the original floor hearth.
20140722_015855.jpg
Moreover, I'm thinking is it worth it to replace the mantel to gain 18in. Unless I am unclear about the clearance details of non-combustible mantels. Does zero clearance mean I could put Mr. Herald as close to a non combustible mantel. The floor hearth itself is only 21 1/2 inches
20140722_015225.jpg
So I assume that I'll be needing some type of hearth pad..
I'm not sure of the footprint of the stove you are getting, but it looks to me that with the back of the stove at either 18" or 36" from the wall you are going to have to extend the hearth that is there. If it were me I would put cement board over the brick on the floor and over the hardwood floors enough to allow for whatever clearance you decide to go with and cover it with ceramic to match what you replace the mantel with. I think it's worth replacing the mantel even if you have to extend the pad on the floor. I did something similar when I installed my stove and laid down cement board and covered it with slate tile.
UncleDoDat wrote:Lastly, the stainless steel liner? So I don't need one? Is this the case whether we go through the fireplace or through the thimble. If so how do I get out of the installation for it and why are they insisting that I need one? What all is needed? And whats not?
You do not need a stainless steel liner if you already have a clay lined chimney. As a matter of fact you are much better off with a clay lined chimney then any stainless steel liner. Tell the guy you have changed your mind and find someone else. All you need is a thimble in your chimney (basically a hole the correct size for the stove pipe to fit into).
Rob

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warminmn
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Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite
Other Heating: wood and a little LP
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes, not 10,000

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 8:32 am

I should have added that you don't need the liner if your existing chimney is in good shape. Some people run cameras thru their chimneys to inspect them. There is likely a clay liner inside of the brick (but not always). If it is in good shape you are good to go. The clay liner will outlast you and the next generation. A stainless liner will last a few years at worst, or you could get lucky and it might last a while. But if your clay liner is good it is a real waste of money to add the liner. That is a hurdle many on here go thru when having chimneys inspected. CO detectors are a must with whatever you end up doing.

northernmaine has a nice idea on matching the pad to the chimney. I'm no interior decorator. even if you are able to back the stove up close to your chimney you will probably have to extend the pad some.
I'm just an old chunk of coal now Lord but I'm gonna be a diamond some day - Billy Joe Shaver

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Pancho
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Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood No. 8
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Other Heating: Jotul Firelight
Location: Michigan

Post Tue. Jul. 22, 2014 9:02 pm

UncleDoDat wrote:
Lightning wrote: Why not install it yourself? Just use good sense and advise from the people on the forum.. Just a suggestion.. :)
My knowledge base end with computer tech repair. :ugeek: I am a techno geek. Besides I don't want to put my family at risk that way. I just recently found out about these stoves. Self install is not an option for me.
Sure it is....just adjust your inner geek and ask questions. You aren't putting a dude on the moon.

steamshovel
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Post Wed. Jul. 23, 2014 9:10 am

lots going on there. if the installer puts in a non-UL listed stove, and the house burns down, the insurance company will pay the claim, then may sue the installer to recover the funds. if you install a non-UL listed stove in your home, your own insurance co. may up your premium, or balk at paying a claim. they are always looking for ways out of paying claims. the insurance industry has complicated everything with liabilities.

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Lightning
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Joined: Wed. Nov. 16, 2011 9:51 am
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Overmodified/Bored out Clayton 1537
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Awesome Size
Location: Olean, NY

Post Wed. Jul. 23, 2014 9:16 am

From what I understand, the ins company has to pay the claim unless you burned the house down on purpose. This whole issue was brought up on another thread where a poster in the insurance field commented.

But I'm sure they could give you a hard time about it if they wanted to..

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