Finally Installed Manometer!

JohnB
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:09 pm

Under the EPA section of the data plate on the back of the stove it says: This stove is only for burning coal, use of any other fuel is a violation of Federal law.

Sounds like it's approved but that's all it says.

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Lightning
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:11 pm

Secondary air does not steal air from the primary. I've done the homework on this. I've placed the man o probe in the primary under the grates then adjusted the secondary from closed to wide open. No change registered on the gauge. Pressure dictates volume.

In order for the negative pressure to weaken under the grates You must exceed the volume that the chimney can move. For example, Opening the load door will achieve that.

Sunny Boy
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:14 pm

John,
Yes, I could see how that could be taken that way.

It could also be that if it were exempt for coal, that tag just means it's not exempt if using it with any other type fuel ?

Paul
Last edited by Sunny Boy on Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sunny Boy
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Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
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Location: Central NY

Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:18 pm

Lightning wrote:Secondary air does not steal air from the primary. I've done the homework on this. I've placed the man o probe in the primary under the grates then adjusted the secondary from closed to wide open. No change registered on the gauge. Pressure dictates volume.

In order for the negative pressure to weaken under the grates You must exceed the volume that the chimney can move. For example, Opening the load door will achieve that.
Not "steal it", but in some instances, could it be that secondary air drops stack temp some, thus slowing a fire and looking like is cutting off primary air as the fire slowly drops back some ?????

Paul

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Lightning
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:18 pm

As a matter of fact I've seen just the opposite happen. If more secondary air is added, the chimney draft will get stronger as more heated air mass is pulling up the chimney. More chimney draft means more primary air as well.

JohnB
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:21 pm

Why would any current production coal stove be exempt from the EPA rules governing the sale of same?

dustyashpan
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:22 pm

stoves burn fine with above fire vents closed & blocked. close below fire main raft vents, stove goes out. below fire ash pan draft, crucial. thats what supports burn & combustion. above fire air treats byproducts, not critical. stove will burn with slight above fire air. good mod make above fire air adjustable on new airtight stove, instead of fixed. then fine tune.

Sunny Boy
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:23 pm

Lightning wrote:As a matter of fact I've seen just the opposite happen. If more secondary air is added, the chimney draft will get stronger as more heated air mass is pulling up the chimney. More chimney draft means more primary air as well.
Does it continue to do that, or just at first for a while ?

Paul

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Sunny Boy
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:23 pm

JohnB wrote:Why would any current production coal stove be exempt from the EPA rules governing the sale of same?
What EPA rule governs the sale of coal stoves unless they are used for fuel other than coal ?

Paul

JohnB
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:25 pm

You look it up, this is getting silly.

dustyashpan
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:30 pm

Lightning wrote:As a matter of fact I've seen just the opposite happen. If more secondary air is added, the chimney draft will get stronger as more heated air mass is pulling up the chimney. More chimney draft means more primary air as well.
opening above fire bleeds to increase draft, that air bypasses fire. getting draft, yes, that bypass air isnt burning coal, its going around it. look at his test. .04 bypass draft isnt supporting fire, going up flue to make EPA legal. would need .10 total measured draft, to get .06 to fire, & maintain .04 at bypass. not a good stove tuning control method. ratio should be other way around. more fire air than bypass air.

dustyashpan
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:32 pm

JohnB wrote:Why would any current production coal stove be exempt from the EPA rules governing the sale of same?
exactly, everything under EPA mandate now, lawnmowers, weedwackers, generators, motorcycles, quads, chainsaws, stoves, fumes from gas tanks, pressure washers, stoves. any fuel burn controlled EPA. old stoves exempt, currently no checks made in my area on any heating appliance. Homeowner can mod any stove or furnace. Manufacturer & installers can not.

Sunny Boy
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 1:37 pm

JohnB wrote:You look it up, this is getting silly.
Sorry if it seems silly. Not trying to bust your chops. I just thought maybe you'd seen a regulation since you seem to think it exists.

And I did try to look it up at the EPA's website. I couldn't find any regulations in connection with domestic use coal stoves. Just wood and other fuel stoves and coal fired power plants. Thought maybe I'd missed it somewhere on that EPA site.

Paul

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Lightning
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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 2:10 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Lightning wrote:As a matter of fact I've seen just the opposite happen. If more secondary air is added, the chimney draft will get stronger as more heated air mass is pulling up the chimney. More chimney draft means more primary air as well.
Does it continue to do that, or just at first for a while ?

Paul
It continues to pull better. I used to have chimney draft failures during warm weather burns until I learned that
Excessive secondary air helps drafting. Now, even today, I have my secondary air with the bigger openings on them. This technique has never failed me. Secondary air promotes draft strength.

@Dusty
.06 + .04 DOES NOT EQUAL .10 in this case

Look, I understand that it doesn't fit logic on the surface but this is exactly what happens in the big picture.

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Post Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 2:13 pm

dustyashpan wrote:
ridgeracing wrote:I have turned stove temp down to 325 past 24hrs and have had a draft of .03 with mpd closed 100%. Opening mpd 100% and closing bi/metal intake I now read .04. I no that with increasing temps in next 2 days I will have to open mpd a little to sustain a descent draft. It is about 45deg outside, 72-74 inside
thank you. stove has .04 leakage from secondary over fire air bleed holes designed in. mpd open. not at .06 yet. if then open manual draft can you get .06 reading, mpd open. mark that spot. problem most draft is over top fire, not under. reduces main draft control effect. fixed drilled bleeds steal control from main draft knob. .04 with mpd open, don't really need mpd. I'd block few fixed air bleeds & come down .01-.03 leak test, transfer control to main draft. new stoves are emission EPA regulated. lots of secondary air in flue, to make legal sellable for EPA. remember air pumps on 1970s cars. same deal pumped air in exhaust manifolds EPA mandate. bleeds create .04 draft then needs mpd to reduce it when main draft opened. no bleeds=no mpd, just draft control. old stoves over fire air was adjustable, today EPA mandates it must be fixed. you can experiment there. question- whats mano reading main draft wide open, mpd wide open?
on my DSM 1400. right now, mature fire, 6 hrs. past last tending. stove top 325*. both lower and upper MPD's fully open, bi-metal flap fully closed. Mano. reads .06 WC..

if I reopen the intake flap to the former position, 1/16" open and holding, the Mano. reads .07 WC.

if I leave the intake flap open that far and close the lower MPD the Mano. reads .05 WC.

if I close the upper MPD 45* the Mano. reads .04 WC and if I close it the Mano. reads .03 WC.

because of this I can't fully support the reference to .04 WC fixed air bleed from the secondarys. BUT, I do have experience that will support the idea that you can alter the balance of how much air enters the stove from under the fire and over the fire by blocking some of the secondary openings. I have proved that conclusively here with my set up.

the infinite variability of the bi metal intake and the constant feed of the hopper is a set of factors that have to be experienced to understand their true impact on all this.

so far my take is that these stoves pull MORE secondary air at lower factors of -WC than they do at higher. i'm not saying I know how, but I have logged the diff. in stove out put a variety of ways and the most transfered heat is at -.05 / -.06WC, secondarys wide open, lower MPD fully closed, no matter what stove top is being held.

no brand or damper axe to grind, just sharing perspective.

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