Advice Concerning Anth/Hard Coal Needed

Hi everybody,

little prologue: accidentally came across William´s Glenwood videos at youtube a while ago and caught fire immediately (so to speak).
Grew up with the good old German Kachelofen in my German grandparent´s home and a coal burning fire place insert at my English Dad´s home, seing William´s vids brought back memories and looking at our latest gas bill brought tears
Now what am I doing on the NEPA forum.... well, since the vast majority of my fellow German´s oppinion on burning coal is more than critical - hysteria seems to be the appropriate term to me- so I have to turn elsewhere to get plain advice without additional dogmatic rants.

my problem:
the cost for heating is skyrocketing: 1.000 ft³ of gas do cost the equivalent of 28.90$ over here in Germany - and we´re living in a 1890´s appartment building. 3 rooms, kitchen, bath, roughly 1100sqft, almost 12ft high ceilings, BIG windows. We´re currently paying the equivalent of $2130 per year just for heating, and we´re still wearing woolen jumpers in order not to be cold!
These old places were obviously built to be heated with coal, but someone had the "great" idea of ripping out the old coal stoves some 20years ago.....
To cut it short here: There are masonry chimneys of huge dimensions in each room, I want to cut on expenses AND enjoy the radiant heat & looks of a stove.
I want an antique beauty - poor William has already been bothered with a plenty of questions on that matter via youtube....
I can get high quality anthracite ($25.30 per 55lbs) & a product called Steinkohle, which translates to hard coal / steamcoal.

now, FINALLY the questions:
1: will anthracite nescessarily burn at a much higher temperature than hard coal / steam coal? I dread the idea of making a subtantial investment in an antique stove and then ruin it by burning anthracite - the guy who sells the stoves guarantees that they can handle the heat of hard coal but avoids precise information on burning anth.... and that makes me suspicious!
2: the design of old european coal stoves appears to be doing the same like base burners, just not at the base, but rather on top of the fire pot... found a beauty that stands about 7ft tall & takes the exhaust through a set of flues up to the very top of the stove. What´s your opinion, does that design do the same or is there a significant difference - other than not recirculating the exhaust through the glowing coals...

Any idea / help / opinion is greatly appreciated -
please excuse the lengh of that first post!
Mark

Welcome to NEPA Crossroads Mark.

Our terminology is that Anthracite and hard coal are the same thing. The alternative is bituminous coal also called soft coal. I have been burning all anthracite and so does nearly everyone on this forum. Early coal stoves being used by so many here do burn anthracite and a few can also burn bituminous. Most old coal stoves can also burn wood.

Some of the antique stove users will probably chime in with a more definitive explanation than I can.

At $25. for 55 pounds of coal, I have to wonder if your heating cost won't be nearly as bad as it is now with gas. That is extreamly high. That would be $909. per ton. I pay 285. per ton and that is higher than many are paying due to my distance from the mines in Pennsylvania

Welcome Mark!

I'd agree on all of Grizzly's points. Also, I believe that "steam coal", at least as defined in the US, is a high rank (that is, a "harder") bitumenous coal. One appeal of true anthracite is that it produces very little, if any, smoke--which might otherwise tip off potentially troublesome neighbors whose minds are closed to coal.

One other consideration: are there restrictions on having a stove in your building?

Did you mean $25 per 55 kilogram instead of pounds? That is still expensive, but possibly competitive with your gas costs.

As far as I know, for practical purposes hard and soft coal do not burn at significantly different temperatures.

I always thought those roll around stoves you Europeans have are cool beyond words. Light your fire, and as you move from living area to cooking/eating area to sleeping area you simply roll the heater from one chimney to the next.

How many square feet are you heating? Most Americans are accustomed to a much larger space than most Europeans.

ETA: Here's what I'm talking about. I've seen coal fired ones with riddling grates in both Paris and Amsterdam. I seriously thought of having one shipped home.

**Broken Link(s) Removed**

Hi don't know if this help but in England there are mostly three types of coal to burn at home 1) House Coal or bituminous, soft coal, this would normal be used in a open fire place maybe used with wood, Not allowed in towns, City',s or any other smokeless zones
2) Anthracite or hard coal, this is used in stoves which you can regulate the air flow. Clean burning can be burned anywhere.
3) Reconstructed coal this is coal dust pressed together under high pressure, normally in egg shapes, some times bricks, the most common used in the UK, never seen it over here in the Usa can only be used in stoves, burns the same as Anthracite, but produces more dust, I think they bulk it with a binder.I think it is made in eastern Europe from brown coal, which it very dirty.
I think most brick lined stoves will be ok for all three, but you need to check how air tight the stove is, you need to have absolute control of the air flow to burn 1) and 2) otherwise the stove will burn out of control and may crack, or warp. ps always heat a old cast stove up slowly from cold, it gives the metal chance to expand evenly. Hope this helps.

If your figures are correct then the gas is far cheaper than coal.

On the top of this page there is a fuel calculator that will give you the BTU content of each fuel. It does not accept your cost numbers probably because they are so far out of what the fuels cost here but you can calculate the relative costs from the BTU content.

Those massive chimneys might have been intended to service many apartments and if you are the only one using a particular chimney you might not be putting enough heat into it to draw properly.

Double check your figures. If they make sense in terms of fuel cost to burn coal then get back to us for recommendations on coal stoves or at least what to look for.

Ashcat wrote:I believe that "steam coal", at least as defined in the US, is a high rank (that is, a "harder") bitumenous coal.

I think you're right. Higher quality bituminous coal is sometimes called "hard coal". A dealer near here has two bins of lump (house) coal, one is labeled hard coal and the other soft coal. They are both obviously bituminous coals but the "hard" has higher Btu. I know of people in Wyoming that refer to Utah coal as "hard coal" because of the difference in BTU's per pound and it is harder in composition.

In Germany hard coal is not anthracite. It is a term (much like the comparisons in western states) to differentiate low/mid (and sometimes high) volatile bituminous black coal from eastern German brown coal/lignite and subbituminous. Germany does have some anthracite deposits in the far west, but I don't believe these are presently being mined. Anthracite you find in Germany is likely (but not definitely) imported from Russia, the Ukraine, Wales and other exporters of anthracite. Anthracite coal is still popular in the low countries and eastern france.

In the UK house coal (bituminous/german hard coal) is widely used in open fires, stoves, furnaces etc outside of what they call "smoke control areas". I am not aware of Germany having "smoke control areas" but it's possible certain cities might prohibit certain solid fuels including wood and bituminous coal. It depends on your locality, but it might be almost impossible to install a stove in your apartment if you try to get approval from the local building code officials. At the least, it's very hard, in my experience in Germany, to "legally" do much of anything as a homeowner.

First of all thanks a lot for all your kind replies

now where to start?!
- according to German industrial standards "Steinkohle" is defined as hard coal with a percentage of max. 16% volatiles, anthracite must by definition contain less than 10% volatiles and more than 90% carbon to be sold under that name
- Anthracite is currently being mined in one single mine in Germany (in Ibbenbüren), guess that explains the price... but the benefits of burning anthracite make up for the higher price - at least in my eyes.
- @ ashcat: thanks a lot for the indication about burning temps! the price per 1000kg anth (chestnut size) is 740€ (~$1000) if delivered, hard coal about €680 (~$930), reconstructed lignite (brick-shaped briquettes) €540 (~$740)
- regulations on "legal" fuels are tight, they do roughly compare to the English requirements for smokeless fuels, e.g. no more than 1% of sulphur allowed in any fuel ect. - that´s why we cannot purchase cheap coals from eastern europe for private use...

-@ steven in soky: I am not thinking of some tiny little thing on wheels (looks cute, though!), but of a substantial 400kg brick lined cast iron stove, which stands 2,30m tall, cast in the late 1800´s (file attached) OR an imported American Base Heater .... think I´d better start a new thread on that question, anyhow...

- regulations on stoves are even more tight than those on fuels
alterations other than replacing wearing parts may only be carried out by expert professionals, the stove must be inspected once a year to make sure it runs safely and has not been manipulated, all heating devices must carry an official certificate of the German Technical Control Board (TÜV or CS), otherwise the chimney sweep is obliged not to give permission to run the device and that leads to the loss of insurance coverage if you still hook it up to the chimney ... and since we´re living in a building that´s listed as protected monument I´d rather not try my luck here
-local regulations: our neighbours are burning lignite&wood, I can see their stoves through the windows & I can smell their fires whenever I open a window!

- chimneys: they are biggish, built to take the exhaust of up to 8 stoves on 4 levels - will that have negative influence on the draft? our chimneys must be at least 30m from the cleaning door in the basement of the building to the very top, I hoped that would make up for the little heat one single stove would put up the chimney

Thanks ever so much for your kind replies so far!
Mark

grizzly2 wrote: At $25. for 55 pounds of coal, I have to wonder if your heating cost won't be nearly as bad as it is now with gas. That is extreamly high. That would be $909. per ton. I pay 285. per ton and that is higher than many are paying due to my distance from the mines in Pennsylvania

well... we´ve just payed a gas bill of €1562,78 (~$2130) for Oct. 2010 to Oct. 2011 and our supplier has just announced another increase of 6% for the coming heating periode - so we´ll presumably end up with a bill of $2260 for 2011/2012 and the apartment is never warmer than 20°C (68°F) during the evenings and 64°F at night and while we´re @ work!
According to a fuel comparison calculator on a local coal suppier´s website anthracite would save me 35-40% compared to gas.... something like $745 per year, if my maths is not all wrong

I basically hope to give propper heat to the living room / dining room area (ca. 50m² = 540 sqft) without growing poor on the additional expense for heating

Now that is a stove!!!!!!!!!

Can you take some close up photos and also photos showing the internal arrangements? Many of the old German stoves had the vertical flues that went up through the top of the stove then many times the gas passage went back down to the rear middle and then out to the chimney. It greatly increased the efficiency. They would burn just about anything if you could control the air flow. Wood got over fire air, non-anthracite got under fire with over fire air and anthracite got only under fire air.

No matter the fuel, you control the temperature by controlling the air flow into and through the stove.

Thanks, but that beauty is not - yet - mine!
Took that pic with the camera in my mobile phone on a first excursion to make iquiries about which stove to get.... The stove stands 2,30m tall will be 400kg, when lined with fire brick and the base is merely 48x55cm! There realy were 3 valves on the 3 doors to let in air, so I reckon you´re right ... and it would explain the German term for that kind of stove "Allesbrenner" (literally "Burnswhatever")
The path of the exhaust in this particular model would be: from over the firebox towards the front right underneath the base of the barrel-shaped part, then up in the front part of the barrel, down again in the middle and then up again in the rear of the barrel and out into the chimney...

There´ll be a second excursion to a different dealer next weekend, will take my camera with me and take some detailed photos that time! Waiting for the weekend feels a bit like waiting for x-mas when I was a child

firebug wrote:- chimneys: they are biggish, built to take the exhaust of up to 8 stoves on 4 levels - will that have negative influence on the draft? our chimneys must be at least 30m from the cleaning door in the basement of the building to the very top, I hoped that would make up for the little heat one single stove would put up the chimney

Before doing anything check the draft in the chimney you will be using. At the very least take a piece of lit twisted newspaper and hold it to the opening to judge if it pulls the flame in.

Those serpentine flue passages in the stove all require strong draft to work well without backing up smoke and fumes. American stoves with similar configurations all had a method of by passing those extended flue passages to increase the draft, usually intended for starting the stove. Your stove should have something similar.

Don't forget the flue passages have to be cleaned yearly. Is there provision to do this easily?

The fit of the lower door that houses the ash pan (and it should have an ash pan of good size) should fit tightly. The practice here is to close a dollar bill in the door at many places to see if the door grips it. You can try this on upper doors also but these are not as critical.

The grate is also critical for ease and thoroughness in clearing the ash. All the modern European stoves I have seen leave a lot to be desired in that regard. Maybe the coal ash is just softer and easier to shake, but it very much depends on the properties of the coal.

Those old German stoves are certainly majestic in appearance, but that should not cloud your judgement in how applicable one would be for your particular installation. Too large a stove might require you to run it at a low setting to avoid overheating. This could result in poor draft and an inefficient fire. Any stove will only run most efficiently at one setting. This is so even though you can alter the heat output considerably. That setting will be with a fairly hot fire.

Give it a lot of thought and try to speak with people who have actually used these stoves.

franco b wrote:Before doing anything check the draft in the chimney you will be using. At the very least take a piece of lit twisted newspaper and hold it to the opening to judge if it pulls the flame in.
I sure will do so, thanks for that info!

Those serpentine flue passages in the stove all require strong draft to work well without backing up smoke and fumes. American stoves with similar configurations all had a method of by passing those extended flue passages to increase the draft, usually intended for starting the stove. Your stove should have something similar.
as far as I recall the stove had no bypass to increase the draft while starting it

Don't forget the flue passages have to be cleaned yearly. Is there provision to do this easily?
yep, the entire lid comes off - it´s basically hidden behind the deorative crown on top of the stove and a second opening on the rear side of the barrel´s base to sweep out the ashes from the flues

The fit of the lower door that houses the ash pan (and it should have an ash pan of good size) should fit tightly. The practice here is to close a dollar bill in the door at many places to see if the door grips it. You can try this on upper doors also but these are not as critical.

The grate is also critical for ease and thoroughness in clearing the ash. All the modern European stoves I have seen leave a lot to be desired in that regard. Maybe the coal ash is just softer and easier to shake, but it very much depends on the properties of the coal.
the grate I saw here did not make me particularly happy.... just a flat disc with slits in it.... it´s supposed to wiggle from left to right if one pulls a handle on the right hand side of the stove´s base, nothing like the shaking mechanism of the Star Herald or Crystal

Those old German stoves are certainly majestic in appearance, but that should not cloud your judgement in how applicable one would be for your particular installation. Too large a stove might require you to run it at a low setting to avoid overheating. This could result in poor draft and an inefficient fire. Any stove will only run most efficiently at one setting. This is so even though you can alter the heat output considerably. That setting will be with a fairly hot fire.
one good thing about this over-regulated country: in order to get permission to utilise antique stoves, the stoves have to be tested on their actual output of heat and efficiency... the one shown here is guaranteed to put out 10KW if run at it´s maximum and 5KW if fed with lignite and left to burn over night at the lowest setting possible. thermal efficiency is supposed to be 84% using wood and 80% using lignite (the only two fuels that must be tested)- got no idea of what 10KW equal in BTU´s, but 10KW would clearly turn the apartment into a sauna, 5 KW still sounds like a lot to me, but should be ok

Give it a lot of thought and try to speak with people who have actually used these stoves.

certainly will! we´re talking about spending €3.000 to 4.500! There´ll be a lot of thinking involved in that process!
the next excursion is scheduled for next weekend, the guy I´ll visit then has a lot of knowledge, he´s been restoring stoves for the past 30-odd years, will open a new thread when I get back & have some pics to share - thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge!

Sorry to here about the regulations over there .our government is trying the same over regulation of our freedoms it sounds like torch and pitchfork time.
How about coke or koke as fuel it also burns smokeless