Hitzer 503 Installation Questions

 
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CT coal burner
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Post by CT coal burner » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 1:15 am

Last week I picked up my 503 insert, and have a couple questions prior to installation.
I have read quite a bit about chimney liners. It seems the overall opinion on this forum is you don't need a chimney liner if you have sufficient draft. My chimney sweep said I do not need a liner; however, it would be more convenient and lower cost over the long haul to have a liner. The reasoning is to clean the chimney, the insert would need to be removed from the fireplace every year for a cleaning. The cost to clean the chimney with a liner would be $120 per cleaning. If there were no liner, the cost would be around $300 per year because of having to remove the insert. A liner would cost me $500, so the payback period would be three years. Even if I had to replace the liner every ten years, it is a cost savings to have the liner under these conditions. The question is: does the chimney need to be cleaned every year when burning coal? Also, how can I tell if I have sufficient draft prior to installing the stove? If I do not install a liner, what should the pipe configuration be coming off the insert into the chimney? Any other input would be helpful. I will post pictures as I can.
Thank you in advance for your input! :D


 
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Beeman
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Post by Beeman » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 5:37 am

Welcome to the Forum!

As a fellow 503 owner, I have dealt with some of the same questions. I installed the 503 after I had removed a wood burning stove. I had a stainless steel liner already in place. While I cannot address the questions regarding draft and which setup is preferable, I can say that the logic of easier chimney cleaning with a liner installed is correct. I clean my chimney once a year from below--i.e. up through stove--and without having to move the stove at all. It is important to clean the chimney to remove fly ash that could reduce draft and/or create an unsafe condition. Creosote is not an issue with coal.

Consider buying a chimney cleaning setup for yourself. Why rely on someone who is not familiar with your stove? If you install with liner, buy a brush that exactly fits your liner and get super flexible rods to make it very easy. Pay more for greater flexibility. You can expect about 1 gallon of fly ash/year when you clean. Brushes and rods are easily available on the internet. Easy job and saves money.

I have heard on this forum that coal burning will eventually degrade a SS liner--I wish I knew more about this. When to be concerned? When to remove or replace the liner? How to evaluate?

Finally, for your peace of mind if you install a liner--watch the person installing the liner to make sure they put three screws into place where liner attaches to stove. Puffbacks--hopefully minor--will occur and you will want the reassurance that your liner is as attached as possible! Enjoy your stove!

 
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CT coal burner
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Post by CT coal burner » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 8:39 am

Hi Beeman, thank you for the response. The other question I have, that I did not ask yet, is about insulating the liner. I can understand the theory of insulating, but I am not convinced it is needed. Is your liner insulated? Whether it is or not, would you recommend the insulation based on your experience?
If I install a liner, I plan to do it myself, so thanks for the tidbit on three screws. I will also be sure to get a brush, no sense spending $120 + per year if I don't need to.
Thanks for taking the time to respond!

 
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Post by SteveZee » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 10:49 am

Good post Beeman,

That's what this site is all about. If you do go with a liner, get the brush kit and do it yourself from below as Beeman suggested. $120 is way too much for that simple cleaning of fly ash. When I used wood it was only $50-$60 for creosote scrubbing and removal. The brush kit and and a shop vac is all you'll need. I wouldn't bother insulating the liner unless it's a very cool chimney on the outside of the house and even then with a liner you probably don't need to insulate it.
That said, a chimney with clay liner is probably the best setup for coal. Never wears out.

 
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Post by CT coal burner » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 8:50 pm

SteveZee wrote:Good post Beeman,

That's what this site is all about. If you do go with a liner, get the brush kit and do it yourself from below as Beeman suggested. $120 is way too much for that simple cleaning of fly ash. When I used wood it was only $50-$60 for creosote scrubbing and removal. The brush kit and and a shop vac is all you'll need. I wouldn't bother insulating the liner unless it's a very cool chimney on the outside of the house and even then with a liner you probably don't need to insulate it.
That said, a chimney with clay liner is probably the best setup for coal. Never wears out.
Thank you SteveZee. Down here in Connecticut, $120 is pretty much the market price to clean a chimney flue, although I am sure there will be those who have found a better deal. I am still concerned with where the fly ash will go after I clean the chimney without a liner. I am sure some would fall back into the stove through the flue, but there is the area around the stove flue that the ash would fall around, then onto the back surface of the stove and into the fireplace. The issue will be if I would have access to vacuum that ash out after a cleaning.
I suppose I could try without a liner, and see how it goes; but I like to do the job right the first time. So I am still looking for a recommendation how to test the draft of my chimney prior to install. Any ideas?
Thank you for your reply.

 
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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 9:00 pm

On a still day, take & ball up some newspaper & light it in the fireplace. If it sucks up good, you're set,make sure your damper is open.Repeat on a windy day. ;)

 
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Post by CT coal burner » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 9:36 pm

freetown fred wrote:On a still day, take & ball up some newspaper & light it in the fireplace. If it sucks up good, you're set,make sure your damper is open.Repeat on a windy day. ;)
Thank you Fred. That's what I like, a simple approach. Does the inside/outside temperature delta matter? Is suppose the closer those temperatures are, the more confident I would be in the test results. The greater the temperature delta, the greater likeliehood of a good draft.


 
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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Aug. 23, 2011 9:44 pm

Sorry my friend, the only Delta I'm really familiar with is the Mecong. You're going to have to wait for someone else to chime in on that one. I do know one thing, that is, that draft is draft. If you've got it you've got it. But then again, we just farm out here. :clap: toothy

 
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Post by CT coal burner » Wed. Aug. 24, 2011 12:42 am

freetown fred wrote:Sorry my friend, the only Delta I'm really familiar with is the Mecong. You're going to have to wait for someone else to chime in on that one. I do know one thing, that is, that draft is draft. If you've got it you've got it. But then again, we just farm out here. :clap: toothy
Thanks for keeping it simple Fred. I am probably over thinking this. :!:

 
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Post by freetown fred » Wed. Aug. 24, 2011 7:19 am

Yep, the KISS theory is real high on my priority list while never overlooking the safety factor. Your install/chimney project will go fine. You're asking the questions you need answered. Nothing wrong with that. ;)

 
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Post by SteveZee » Wed. Aug. 24, 2011 11:48 am

CT coal burner wrote:
SteveZee wrote:Good post Beeman,

That's what this site is all about. If you do go with a liner, get the brush kit and do it yourself from below as Beeman suggested. $120 is way too much for that simple cleaning of fly ash. When I used wood it was only $50-$60 for creosote scrubbing and removal. The brush kit and and a shop vac is all you'll need. I wouldn't bother insulating the liner unless it's a very cool chimney on the outside of the house and even then with a liner you probably don't need to insulate it.
That said, a chimney with clay liner is probably the best setup for coal. Never wears out.
Thank you SteveZee. Down here in Connecticut, $120 is pretty much the market price to clean a chimney flue, although I am sure there will be those who have found a better deal. I am still concerned with where the fly ash will go after I clean the chimney without a liner. I am sure some would fall back into the stove through the flue, but there is the area around the stove flue that the ash would fall around, then onto the back surface of the stove and into the fireplace. The issue will be if I would have access to vacuum that ash out after a cleaning.
I suppose I could try without a liner, and see how it goes; but I like to do the job right the first time. So I am still looking for a recommendation how to test the draft of my chimney prior to install. Any ideas? Thank you for your reply.
CT, First off tell me a bit about your chimney. Usually, you'll find a cleanout door at the bottom of the chimney somewhere. I have 3 chimneys on my old 225yr old house and the middle one terminates in the cellar and has a small door you can open to clean out ash or soot. The chimney with my cookstove aslo has one but I have to crawl under the porch to get at that one. You should have one somewhere at the bottom of yours. Also remember its quite a bit lower at the bottom of the chimney then where your appliance is on the first floor, meaning you've got quite a bit of space for the ash to fall into.

It's hard to test draft when it's warm due to pressure differential but when it gets colder you can do as Fred mentioned with some paper lit to warm it up then use an incense stick or something that smokes well and you'll see it pulling. I can actually light one now and put it inside my cylinder stove and see the smoke get sucked out into the exhaust exit pipe. When it get colder the draft will get stronger also.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Sun. Sep. 04, 2011 3:41 pm

You can start without the liner and see if it works...
The 'rents 503 needed an insulated liner...
Due to the poor draft created by the large flue on the north facing outside chimney...
The insulated liner was worth the trouble because the stove is still drafting properly at 70* outside temps...
That is an advantage during the spring and fall when the outdoor temps spike during the day and fall at night...

 
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Post by CT coal burner » Tue. Sep. 13, 2011 12:52 pm

I installed the insert over the weekend. Decided to install a Forever Flex liner for the entire length of the chimney. It wasn't too bad getting it down the chimney, through the damper and into the fireplace, the most difficult part was connecting to the stove.
My fireplace is 31" tall, so the standard 6" shroud is too small by 3". I ordered a customer piece from Hitzer, should be here by the end of the week.
Next on the list is to remove the wood surround from the front of the fireplace, extend my hearth by 12", and replace my wooden mantle with a piece of slate. Other than that, ready to burn.
The insulation on the top of the stove in the picture is for the shrouds, just haven't secured the shroud plates yet, so this was to keep the cats out.

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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Sep. 13, 2011 1:06 pm

Outstanding my young friend. She's coming along nicely. ;)

 
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Post by Beeman » Wed. Sep. 14, 2011 6:17 am

Looking good, CT Coal Burner. I am sure you will enjoy your Hitzer insert.

One other thought regarding operation of this particular stove concerns the bricks just inside the firebox door. There is some wiggle room with these bricks. I noticed that the bricks have a tendency to lean toward the fire, i.e. away from the door and into the heart of the stove. If that happens, pieces of coal can get behind the bricks and eventually the bricks will break and need to be replaced. Simple fix that has worked for me is to wedge a piece of rebar--cut so that it runs the width of all the bricks just inside the firebox door--so that the bricks are held back tight against the front of the stove (back toward you the operator and away from the fire). No more wiggle room! Enjoy your stove up there in the Nutmeg State.


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