12 Yr Old Harman Mag. Elite Coal Insert

 
xena032
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Post by xena032 » Sun. Feb. 06, 2011 11:52 pm

We're new to this forum but have been reading it for a few wks now and hoping someone can tell us if what we're dealing with is to be expected. Now this is a bit of a story and some of you are about to cringe at our Gerry-rigging techniques so here goes. We wanted to heat our basement and supplement our insert in the living room so bought a Franco Belge for $99 from Craigs List. It's our first time using coal. It's supposed to be a 55k BTU free standing stove from the 1980s. It didn't keep the flame going so we set a fan on the glass, had to open up the air holes by leaving the ash drawer open and leave the air vent dial open on the right side. When we did this, it would go for about 3 or so hours and then the line of lit coal would move upward with alot of ash and half burned coal below but our kitchen floor above would be toasty warm and the house would be: 80 deg. ground floor, 72-74 on 2nd floor and around 68 on 3rd floor. Well we found out that it liked to create carbon monoxide every now and then so our detector went off a couple of times. Now we know why it was so cheap. I'd also have to get up at night to 'shake it down'. What a pain but the house has been very warm. The magnetic thermometer would read around 300 to 400 degrees on the stack for this Franco so we weren't over-firing it. Then we saw an ad for a Harman Mag. Elite insert and bought it (Craigs List again). We just installed this weekend. It's easy to light, keeps a beautiful blue flame on top with alot of orange underneath. Looks just like this forums picture at the top. Problem is that it's supposed to be up to 80,000 BTU's and it isn't doing as good a job as the Franco Belge. I know inserts aren't supposed to be quite as good as free standing stoves but I'd say this Harman's more like 40,000 BTU at best. Both 75 cfm fans work. Kitchen floor isn't toasty anymore and the house is noticeably cooler because this Harman looks like it's throwing heat but isn't. One thing we didn't do is pack insulation around the flex pipe but everything else is how it should be (some plate at the back is closed too). I've heard alot of good things about Harman's and can't believe the Franco Belge that we had to tend so much and gerry-rig did a better job than an 80k BTU Harman?! We're thinking that we need to install higher cfm blowers to get more heat out. Anyone try doing that? Any suggestions on how to get the 80k btu's?


 
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freetown fred
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Post by freetown fred » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 7:54 am

Welcome my friend--I'll guarentee you'll be inundated w/ info before the sun sets ;) I have a free-standing--but I do know that if you don't insulate around the smoke shelf (around your flex pipe)--as in CLOSE it UP-- most of your heat is probably going up the chimney. I'd deal with that before worrying about blowers--not that it could be an option,but,take one step at a time--soooo,start with the obvious :) Keep us posted as these suggestions come in

 
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Post by LsFarm » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 11:00 am

As Fred said, you MUST completely close off the chimney flue, and only have the exhaust/flue from the Elite insert going up the fireplace chimney..

Now, if you really want to get all the heat out of that insert.. put it down in the basement where the Franco was.. as a freestanding stove.. this way you aren't trying to heat the masonry fireplace.. and install a barometric damper in the flue pipe, so the heat stays in the stove, not getting pulled up the chimney..

Do some reading on the forum there is a slight learning 'curve' you need to climb.. but it's worthwhile..

BTW: you are quite lucky with your Franco.. what you describe was a recipe for disaster, either an overfire/meltdown of the stove or a Carbon Monoxide long term sleep,, the sleep you don't wake up from..

PLEASE, PLEASE don't cut corners with leaving doors open, or potential CO leaks.. We don't like dead forum members.. they don't type or post much.. :shock:

Greg L

 
xena032
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Post by xena032 » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 11:44 am

Thanks for the info so far. We already have the Harman in the basement right where the Franco was. What we're using for drafting is a chimney that was also part of an old incinerator that was built with the house in the 1920s. We took out a small part of the brick facing to the incinerator as we were told it didn't support the chimney, but we decided to add support anyway in the form of a steel bar. We then fitted the Harman into the opening. What we might do is see if there's a safe way to open the incinerator part up more ... but then there'd be an ugly hole there and right now, it looks like a proper fireplace... I just emailed my husband your suggestions as he wanted to know what you recommended so we're going to start with insulating around the flex pipe and go from there. I am doubtful that this unit is able to put out 80k BTU's but if so, how do you get it to that point safely? Keep in mind we're inexperienced with coal.

ps-can we put a fan directed on the glass of the insert to get more heat? Dumb question but wont that affect the fire since this insert is drafting well already? How do you prevent over-firing if using a fan on the glass?

 
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Post by jeromemsn » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 11:49 am

Pictures tell a better story than words....

First, insulate around the ovalized flex pipe. Is the flex at least past the smoke shelf, 5 feet or so into the flue?

Second, Your buying used stoves, so did I. Make sure all of the glass and door gasket material is in place and also is not crushed to the point that it does not work properly. Harman door glass only has gasket material on the sides not the top or bottom. Harman main door and ash door gaskets can become crushed over time and not fit tight. Some take a dollar bill and put it between the door and stove body, close the doors and give a tug. If you can move it easy then it might be time to replace the gasket rope of the doors.

Third, I know some say a free stander is better and maybe so, but my Harman would let us open the back window of the bedroom in the middle of winter it would be so warm. Brick rancher, 3 bedroom, 0 insulation in the walls and only 3 inches in the ceiling. The masonary fireplace would actually get warm from the heat of the Harman to the point that you could feel it on the back side in the kitchen/dinning room. No, I didn't have a boro damper, there was no room between the top of the stove and the chimney. I only had the spin damper on the ash door open 3/4 of a turn and the house would be 80. Had a fan at the end of the hall way furthest away from the stove set on low blowing the cool air at the floor level toward the stove. Man did it work!

The type of coal you use will have a big impact.
Fill it up to the top of the bricks all the way around, bricks are your friend, so be friendly with them.
Did you clean the chimney?
Do you have a topper on the top of your chimney to keep birds and rain out? If so you might want to see if that is blocked or blocking any of the flue gases.
Do you have a CO meter to warn about exposure to BAD gasses?
Keep us informed and we can help :)

 
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Post by LsFarm » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 12:04 pm

Yes,, photos will help a lot.

you want your chimney to have it's only openings, in the insert, and at the top.. NO other places for air to get into the chimney/flue unless it's a barometric damper, and since you have your Elite set up as a free standing stove, you should be able to add a baro to the flue.. this will help keep you from wasting heat up the chimney.

You can blow air on the outside of the stove it will do no harm.. your air vents to feed the fire.. you want ONLY the air vents going into the ashpan area to be in use. If your Elite has air vents on the loading doors CLOSE them.. NO air above the fire.. only below.. [this was the problem you had with the Franco from your description, you had above the fire air vents open].

And as mentioned above, load the coal to the top of the firebrick.. as much as you can. Coal burns best in a deep coal bed..

As for heating capacity how big was the Franco's firebed.. I'll take a WAG and say 9"x 16" ? and The elite?? 12"x22" ?? even if I'm off by a lot, I'm sure the Elite has a lot more square inches of coal bed.. it's the area, not the volume of the coal bed that determines the heat output.. The volume determines the length of burntime..

Hope this helps.
Greg L

 
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Post by franco b » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 12:21 pm

There are quicker way to kill yourself but your way is at least painless.

You were badly over firing the Franco Belge. It is probably ready for the scrap pile now. Has the glass melted or sagged?

Heat given off by a stove is a function of how many square feet of heat exchange surface it has and how hot that surface is. A blower will increase the efficiency of the heat exchange surface.

What is the temperature on the smoke pipe and stove top of the Harman? Stove top should not exceed 600 degrees.

How large is that basement and are the walls insulated? You can either put more heat into an area or do things that will make it require less heat. Running a stove red hot is not a good solution.


 
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Post by xena032 » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 1:28 pm

Franco b - No damage to glass at all. We had a magnetic thermometer on the stack and it never read over 390 so you can let me know if that reading means we were overfiring it. According to a friend, we were not. We had a friend who has used coal successfully for years come over and tell us how to start a coal fire and maintain it. He has a Hitzer. Our $99 Franco belge unit was bad according to him because it wasn't drafting properly so couldn't keep a fire going on it's own and starting a fire was a nightmare. Proof of this is the Harman. It drafts beautifully and starts easily. I don't know for sure but you seemed a little quick to assume things. Stove top temp for Harman is ranging from 300 to 400. In the manual, the temp shouldn't exceed 500 or it is considered over-firing. Basement's not that big and walls are uninsulated. That didn't seem to make a difference with the Franco which, wasn't being over-fired. We think that the fan we had on the glass blew some ash backwards, clogging up the pipes and causing the carbon monoxide problem.

LS Farm - Will try to upload photos. I just took some. The Harman is not set up as a freestanding stove. We placed it inside a 4 x 5 brick incinerator that we've converted to a fireplace. So the back of the Harman is inside the incinerator, just like it would be in a regular fireplace. Now it could be that the size of the inside of that incinerator is so much bigger than a fireplace that the heat is being absorbed in there?

You mention about air vents - there's a roundish knob thing below the loading door for the Elite that turns to send more air in or to close air off to the fire. Are you saying we need to close that? Not sure how the fire would stay lit if we do that...Your estimate is pretty good on the size of firebed with the Franco and Harman. We're filling the entire bed with coal so doubt that's the issue.

jeromemsn - when we insulate around the flex pipe, we'll also check the gasket. There's no cap on this incinerator chimney - it hasn't been used in years so hasn't been cleaned but when a strong light is shon up it, it doesn't look dirty. As for the detector, we have one installed on the wall near the Harman. That's what alerted us to the problem with the Franco. I'm envious of the heat from your insert. Recovering from an illness so keeping warm's important!

Attachments

00003.jpg

incinerator opened up for Harman Elite - messy/just done this weekend.

.JPG | 170.7KB | 00003.jpg

 
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Post by franco b » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 3:10 pm

xena032 wrote:Franco b - No damage to glass at all. We had a magnetic thermometer on the stack and it never read over 390 so you can let me know if that reading means we were overfiring it. According to a friend, we were not. We had a friend who has used coal successfully for years come over and tell us how to start a coal fire and maintain it. He has a Hitzer. Our $99 Franco belge unit was bad according to him because it wasn't drafting properly so couldn't keep a fire going on it's own and starting a fire was a nightmare. Proof of this is the Harman. It drafts beautifully and starts easily. I don't know for sure but you seemed a little quick to assume things. Stove top temp for Harman is ranging from 300 to 400. In the manual, the temp shouldn't exceed 500 or it is considered over-firing. Basement's not that big and walls are uninsulated. That didn't seem to make a difference with the Franco which, wasn't being over-fired. We think that the fan we had on the glass blew some ash backwards, clogging up the pipes and causing the carbon monoxide problem.
Any assumptions were based on what you wrote. Any stack temperature using a Franco Belge above 200 surface temperature, except very briefly, is over firing this make of stove. The need to tend every 3 or 4 hours also confirms this. Poor draft on the stove was probably caused by clogged flue passages within the stove which would also account for the CO leaking and the need to keep the ash door open. Blowing a fan on the glass probably saved the glass and could not clog the stove unless you were shaking down with the door wide open and the fan blowing in.

Getting your Harman up to 500 or 600 degrees will double its output. How much coal were you burning in the Franco and how much in the Harman? Burning an equal amount in the Harman should give you more heat than with the Franco since it is a larger stove and also has a blower. Stack temperature should also be much lower than with the Franco.

 
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Post by jeromemsn » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 4:08 pm

From the picture you posted you need a lot more coal in there, fill her up to the top of the fire brick. always leave an area in the front open with red hot coals showing while filling so that you burn off the volatile gas that will be produced while the coal heats up to burning temp. Fill up the stove in thirds after a shake down every 12 hours. You have a bigger stove now it's going to take probably double or triple the amount of coal. The fire brick is your friend so use it and be friendly if you fill up the stove correctly you will have close to 80 or 90 pounds in there total after a shake down you will add about 25 pounds every 12 hours.

The air between the stove and fireplace is no matter, but you have to, have to make sure you stuff insulation up there between the flex and the chimney, don't be afraid stuff it good.

Insulate and more coal in the firebox. Keep the draft spinner at the ash door turned out about 3/4 of a turn more or less. 3/4 is a good starting point with a full load of coal after a day of burning you might need to turn it out another 1/4 turn for more heat. 1 and a 1/2 turns is about max on a Harman, good for those below zero days.

Coal type?
Outside picture of chimney?

 
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Post by freetown fred » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 4:51 pm

Yep my friend,pay attention to these other Harman owners--they've been there done that--you seem to be doing fine & a little fine tuning will have you up & about in no time--I personally have a cap on my chimney due to living on the top of a hill & periodically catching some hellacious winds. :)

 
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Post by xena032 » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 5:39 pm

Franco b - Today I did some internet searches and found info that seems to indicate that a strong draft can also cause short burn times. No mention made of over-firing. Maybe strong drafts and overfiring give same results? Also, if the stack temp is supposed to reach 200 only briefly, why is it that the magnetic thermometer indicates that a good burn is above 300? I read that signs of over-firing is red hot metal. We never saw that. It was a struggle to keep the thing going. We wonder if it wasn't over-fired by previous owner/s resulting in damage to the metal and an inability to properly draw air because it couldn't sustain a fire on it's own. The chimney being used seems to draft pretty well for the Harman so drafting wasn't the issue. The fan we used was often on a low setting so doubtful it saved the glass but not sure there either. The stove was maybe a piece of junk which is why it went for $99 on Craigs List. We're selling it to a dealer for parts. I did read that rust can indicate over-firing and it had rust on it when we got it. As for the Harman - I have periodically been adding to the bed of coal today to see if we can't get the temp up. I understand that once coal is added, it takes a while to heat up since the new coal will cause the temp to drop. I don't know how to calculate the amount of coal used for the Harman as I just loaded it in, one shovel at a time without noting the amounts. You mention getting the stove to 500-600 degrees yet the manual says to not exceed 500 due to over-firing? In the manual I assume they're referring to the stove top temp?

Jeromeman - I'm working on filling up the coal. It's pretty much at the top of the firebrick now. I added in gradual layers - before reading your response on how to add in thirds. Thx for the tip about the front being left open for gases to burn. Also for the tip on how much we should be using. As for the draft spinner, we get a nice blue flame over the entire bed of about 1 inch or so with the spinner open 2 full turns. I'm wondering if our chimney isn't drafting as well as we thought. The chimney is very tall and as I mentioned before, used to be an incinerator - we previously tested it with a lit flame and it seemed to draft well. We buy pea coal and my husband thinks it's anthracite/the harder stuff? Bought from a place recommended by the friend who's been burning coal for years. I'll have to take a pic of the chimney tomorrow in daylight as it's getting too dark now.

Freetown Fred - we'd like to get a cap on the chimney asap but snow/ice is the problem there. May have to wait until Spring. We read that a cap prevents alot of the down draft of cold air along with prevention of birds falling in.

 
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Post by Poconoeagle » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 5:46 pm

" Also, if the stack temp is supposed to reach 200 only briefly, why is it that the magnetic thermometer indicates that a good burn is above 300? "

those burn indicator indexes are for WOOD

the thermometer value is worthy but the "burn" areas of the guage are for wood.

if you are selling it for parts Il'l give you $125! :D I always wanted one of those!!

thats a good unit and you should get it to perform well. BUT if not lemee know 8-)

p.s. burn nut coal in it..... ;)

 
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Post by PC 12-47E » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 6:13 pm

xena032 wrote:Franco b - Also, if the stack temp is supposed to reach 200 only briefly, why is it that the magnetic thermometer indicates that a good burn is above 300? I read that signs of over-firing is red hot metal. We never saw that.
The magnetic thermomers indicate a good burn for WOOD STOVES. :shock:
Our coal stoves are burning at 450*F on the mid section of the stove.
The stack Temperature is 160*F 18" up the stove pipe.
The temp after the barometric damper is 120*F
Anthracite coal burns with a much lower exhaust stack temp than a wood fire.
I have never seen a coal fire stack temp above 250*F.......

Insulate the flex pipe/ chimney shelf area with fiberglass and the stove will heat much better.

Also, does your Harman have the factory fan attached to the stove??? If not you will need to get one. The stove was designed to heat best with the fan/heatexchanger......

Harman stoves are built very well....After you have it dialed in you will be very happy. 8-)

PC 12

 
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Post by LsFarm » Mon. Feb. 07, 2011 6:45 pm

Hi again. When I mentioned the air control spinner under the door, I didn't have a photo of an Elite in front of me.. some of the Harman stoves are designed to burn wood as well as coal, and have a spinner on the loading door as well as on the ashpan door.. Your stove only has the one, on the ashpan door, and as you already know and are doing: it's the air control for the coal fire,, it feeds air under the grates..

I'd recommend buying nut or stove size coal to use.. the reason is this: coal creates it's heat based on how much air/oxygen can get to the fire.. Pea coal will burn fine, but since it leaves very small air passageways around and through the coal pieces and coal bed, it is limited on how hot it can get.. Nut or stove coal has larger pieces, which gives larger air passageways, and therefore more maximum heat.. some people will add a layer of pea coal over the top of coalbed full of nut or stove to slow the burn rate and cool down the fire.. You are trying for more heat, so I'd use larger coal..

As for the insert in the fireplace.. well the franco was freestanding right?? so all four sides were able to get air, and radiate to the basement.. which adds heat to the room.. Inserts are nice, they take up a lot less room, and they have an air passageway and fan around the back, but only ONE side is exposed to the room, so you get less radiant heat off the stove body.. and the brick around it will absorb a lot of heat..
I think you will be able to get your insert to do the job in the fireplace, but it will do better out as a freestanding stove..

As mentioned above stuff insulation around the flue pipe, you don't want any room air being pulled up the chimney.. it's going to waste if it does..

I'd not recommend adding a chimney cap, it will cut down on the draft the chimney creates.. it's only good to keep the silly birds from commiting suicide by sitting on the top of the chimney, enjoying the heat.. untill the carbon monoxide makes them dizzy and the fall into the chimney..

Measure your stove temp just above the door on the vertical surface, that 's usually the hottest location on the stove..

Your Franco has some small exhaust passageways the get clogged with flyash, and cause poor fires and draft.. that was probably the cause of your poor fires and experience with it.. if the flue temp was close to 400* then the stove firebox was MUCH hotter, hence the 'overfiring' comments..
We're all very glad that nothing catastrophic happened.. and you now have a safe instalation.. SAFETY FIRST..

When you shake down the ashes, do you shake untill you see plenty of red pieces falling into the ashpan?? When a stove has been burning for several days or more, some stoves will accumulate a thick layer of ash on the grates, sometimes in only a side, corner or center.. but this accumulation blocks the free air flow to the fire, and you don't get as much heat 'cause of the restriction.. So when you shake down the fire, and think its enough, open the ash door after a few moments [to allow the dust to be pulled up through the fire] and pull out the ash pan,and look at the bottom of the grates. You should see red, glowing coal through the gaps in the grates over the whole surface.. if you have large dark areas. make a poker from a piece of heavy wire,, like pencil thick steel wire or steel rod,, bend an 'L' on the end, use this to poke up into the dark spots through the gaps in the grates.. this will break up the ashes and they usually will fall down quite easlily.. then you will have full air flow to the fire, and max heat output..

Hope this helps..
Greg L


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