12 Yr Old Harman Mag. Elite Coal Insert

 
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SMITTY
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Post by SMITTY » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 8:22 am

Yeah, fill it right up. Deeper the better.

When you think you can't fit another scoop in, throw in 6 more. Mound it up & slope it towards the front.

This one had been burning for hours, but you get the idea. The bottom coil is about an inch or 2 above the top of the firebrick:


 
xena032
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Post by xena032 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 9:20 am

The insert is now fully loaded all the way up to the brick at the back, gradually levelling to the bricks in front. We're still just getting temps of around 400. I'm thinking we will have to open the spinner more than most because it may not be drafting as well as we thought? Also, there's no way those blowers are throwing 150 cfm's combined. We have a quadrafire insert in the living room that has a blower with 100 cfm's and you feel the draft 8 feet away. The light fixture sways a little because of that blower. These blowers are limping along. You only feel them when you're about 3 or 4 feet away from the insert.

As for the insulation issue, maybe that is a part of the problem but it's not the whole problem. We've owned other inserts before (different fuels) and this one is only giving about 30k BTU's at best. We also can't insulate around the flex pipe until a cap is put on. We both don't like the idea of a bird getting caught down in the chimney so until the cap is on (Spring or a good break from snow and ice) we just can't do that. I really think we just should've bought new as this buying used stuff is a headache.

 
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Post by LsFarm » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 9:40 am

I don't understand what stuffing insulation around the flexpipe just above the stove has to do with having or not having a cap on the chimney??
The amount of addtional heat going up the chimney would only be greater and attract more birds to sit on the top of the chimney..

A chimney cap REDUCES draft. I don't recommend installing one. especially since your instalation seems to be draft limited..

I'd pull out the unit, stuff insulation around the pipe in the chimney.. AND remove the fans.. lubricate them,, and CLEAN the fan blades.. if they are the 'squirrel cage' type fan, use a Q-tip and wipe every blade.. these fans get cat and dog hair, regular dust etc on the blades and lose 50% or more of their airflow.. so make sure they are clean and the motor lubricated..

Try using a smoke-stick, an incense stick or a cigarette for smoke, and go around the trim piece where it meets the brick opening,, is the smoke being sucked into the gap around the stove, and it can only go one place: up the chimney..

I'll bet when you pull it out, you'll find the brick is warm/hot to the touch.. maybe consider converting the unit to a freestanding by extending the flue?

Greg L

 
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Post by titleist1 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 9:55 am

Since you are burning pea coal you will need to give more air through the spinner knob than with nut coal to get similar temps. Each stove set up is different, but I would guess at least two turns on the spinner for pea coal to generate the heat. For a small expense you can get a few 40lb bags of nut coal to try out and see if it makes a difference, the bags should be around $6 each depending on your source. Who knows, for your set up the pea may be the better choice a little later in the spring when temps aren't too cold then it wouldn't be wasted.

I agree with Greg that the squirrel cage in the fan probably needs to be thoroughly cleaned to increase your airflow. I'll do that about twice a year and I am guessing from the looks of the baffle plate the previous owner was not the best at maintenance. I'm not familiar with the Harman inserts, are those two slots I see above the door where the air comes out from the distribution blowers? If so the tubes for those slots run above the baffle plate. Have you ever vacuumed off the top of the baffle plate of all the fly ash. In the freestanding harman's a build up of fly ash there will insulate the tubes and the heat transfer will not be as effective cutting down on heat brought to the room, the inserts are probably the same.

The other thing to check and it may have been brought up before, is the gaskets around the glass and loading door. You should only have rope gasket on the sides of the glass, not the top or bottom. The door gasket needs to make the door fit very tight, if not air will get in through there and provide over the fire air which will make your stove run cooler since all the air is not coming through the coal bed. Again this is routine maintenance for the stove that may never have been done by the previous owner and may be contributing to the poor performance of your stove. The ash pan door gasket should also be replaced about every 2 years, but if that was not tight fitting then you would probably be burning the coal too hot and too quickly since more air would be going through the firebed than you were controlling with the spinner knob.
Last edited by titleist1 on Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
xena032
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Post by xena032 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 9:56 am

We'll think on what you said about the birds/chimney insulation issue.

I just checked the insert and it's not at around 550, give or take. Is this considered over-firing? I just reduced air flow. It was out by 3 full spins in order to get it to that temp. It's 34 degrees here and we have the insert in the living room going and the insert in the basement. The Harman just isn't putting out the heat. The guy who sold us this Harman said he'll give us half our money back or he'll take the unit back. He thinks we need a stove vs an insert. He's a nice guy.

We might try the nut coal you suggest, titlelst1.

 
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Post by titleist1 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 10:11 am

Where is the 550*? I measure mine on the top of the side of the stove towards the front and 550* is a normal measurement for me when it is very cold, that is not overfiring. When it is not so cold, it'll measure about 475* because I give it less air through the spinner.

My stack temp measured with a probe at those stove temps will run from 200* - 300*.

I am burning nut coal and I run the spinner at most 1-3/4 turns open on the really cold nights. Today it is about 1-1/4 open.

Don't know if you are close to Quarryville / Buck but there is a good source of coal there, nut and pea size, bagged or bulk, delivered or picked up. Bagged Blaschak nut is $5.50 per 40lb bags, $210 per ton loose bulk picked up.

 
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Post by xena032 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 11:48 am

Hi - I'm including a photo of the 2 mag. thermometers we have. They are both on the top of the insert. The one on the left always reads about 25 to 50 degrees less than the one on the right. We just got up to the 500's temperatures today. I just threw in more coal to keep it at the brick top and it went down to 480 or so which is fine as it's warmer here. We will try another coal type to see what happens but at least we now know the temperature in the box can get there. We just have to get the heat out so these blowers will need to be replaced or fixed somehow. We are about 20 mins from Quarryville. What's the name of the business?

Attachments

00005.jpg

two mag. thermometers placed on top of the insert

.JPG | 136.5KB | 00005.jpg


 
CapeCoaler
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Post by CapeCoaler » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 12:26 pm

you got the temps up and that is good...
Next project is the blowers...
Once they are working properly the heat should be good...
Pull out the blowers and clean them good...
Check that the motors are working at full speed while they are out...

 
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freetown fred
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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 12:42 pm

I think you'll find a big difference useing the NUT coal--my understanding is that pea coal restricts alot of under draft == less heat--people tend to use it in the cool early spring mos & again in early fall to keep the heat down---you've got a good stove there--don't get discouraged--everyone goes through this learning curve--it ain't magic--but once conquered,it is outstanding :) That $5.50 a bag is a good price--go get awhat you can afford at this time & check it out!!!

 
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Post by xena032 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 12:56 pm

CapeCoaler - how do you know if the motors are working at full speed or not? Is there a gadget that can gauge that for us?

Also, we have a Quadrafire Mt. Vernon pellet insert in our living room. We want a similar high cfm to get the heat out of the harman. Any idea what we could buy to get that result? I don't think these slower fans are going to cut it.

Also, what will it cost us to repair that baffle plate issue? If it's going to stress the sides of the stove, wouldn't it be better to give it back to the seller and get something else? The seller's willing to take it back and return our money.

 
CapeCoaler
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Post by CapeCoaler » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 1:29 pm

http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/E ... Insert.pdf
Link to manual...
Clean them first...
Then see if the squirrel cage fan is spinning fast...
A electric motor shop has a non contact tach. but that would cost $...
Just see if it is spinning fast or slow...
The motors may have crapped out and are only spinning slowly...

 
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freetown fred
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Post by freetown fred » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 3:07 pm

That return the stove issue is definatly not a FORUM question--it's a you question. You've been given a wealth of info, but, if you are not comfortable with the Harman--you have to do what you have to do--point of interest--there are a lot of stoves out there :) The good news is that if you do return the Harman & look for another unit--you have a much better idea of what to check out due to info received here
xena032 wrote:CapeCoaler - how do you know if the motors are working at full speed or not? Is there a gadget that can gauge that for us?

Also, we have a Quadrafire Mt. Vernon pellet insert in our living room. We want a similar high cfm to get the heat out of the harman. Any idea what we could buy to get that result? I don't think these slower fans are going to cut it.

Also, what will it cost us to repair that baffle plate issue? If it's going to stress the sides of the stove, wouldn't it be better to give it back to the seller and get something else? The seller's willing to take it back and return our money.

 
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Post by xena032 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 3:51 pm

The main question was about the repair of the baffle. Also, how stressed are the sides after a baffle fails and is this issue going to come back to haunt us if we don't repair it/are the sides going to become so stressed we can't use it? That's the info we need to know. After spending hundreds on a used Harman already, we don't want to have to turn around and spend alot more on a new one because the used Harman's structure was compromised.

 
titleist1
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Post by titleist1 » Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 4:05 pm

I don't know if you can repair the baffle to the point of trusting it or not. I also don't know the most effective fix or what it would cost to repair it.

After many years of use, I had a baffle get warped on my first Mark III and it pulled in on both sides of the stove causing a crack on each side. It was interesting to me that the weld between the baffle and the side did not fail, the side ended up with the crack below the weld on both sides.

When I would start up the fire I could see smoke seeping out these cracks. I opted to replace the stove a few years back rather than try to figure out a fix for both the baffle and the cracks in the side.

I guess it depends on what you paid for the stove as to whether it is worth returning it or trying to repair the baffle and running it, but that is something you'll have to decide.

Whenever I see someone post on here about looking at a used Harman I always suggest they inspect the baffle closely to make sure it isn't compromised at all.

 
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Post by medukonis » Wed. Feb. 09, 2011 10:03 pm

Congrats on your find, you got a great deal. This is our first year burning coal. I'll tell you a little bit about how we made out using the same model. We installed a Harman magnafire elite insert in our basement also. After some research I placed and order with our local dealer for a new unit back in the summer of 2010. The previous year we purchased a Harman pellet stove insert for the fireplace in the living room directly above taking advantage of the federal tax credit. We really love Harman stoves however as this season comes to a close I'll show you that I had the same problem that you are having with the blowers on your coal insert. The squirrel cage blowers are woefully under powered. My basement is finished so it is cut up into rooms etc... about 1750 square ft. Even so, the coal insert should be able to heat it by itself. I had to place a box fan on a pedestal to help move the air around. Reloading the stove every 12 hours on the dot and keeping it at around 500-600 degrees (open about 1 full turn for me), the basement stayed at a comfortable 72-74 degrees with no help from the main furnace. Mind you I am renovating and the ceiling insulation is removed. Much of the heat rises into the 1st floor above which helped keep us warm upstairs. We are very happy with the investment. We ran a little short on coal supply this year but it was pretty chilly. We are now getting into the 40s and 50s so I'll let the furnace and wood pellets take over but definitely look forward to next year.

Some tips for your draft based on my experience this year:
pack the smoke shelf tight with insulation. We even went so far as to close it off with a sheet metal kit that installs around the flex pipe after you stuff it tight with insulation.
Make a good connection of the flex pipe to the insert utilizing the direct connect kit from Harman made specifically for this stove makes a nice tight seal I even took it a step further and used high temp sealant.
Lastly, high temp silicone or stuff some insulation behind the metal flanges against the brick of your fireplace opening where they meet so it is sealed off.
Most of these are in the manual too which you can download from Harman's website. We did a lot of reading on this forum too. We were rewarded with a toasty house this winter (Thanks to all on here).


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