Switching From Wood?

 
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SheepDog68
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Post by SheepDog68 » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 5:16 pm

Having spent some time reading many of the threads here a few years ago and reading quite a bit since I joined the forum, I think I am about ready to make the switch from heating my house with wood to coal.

As a wood burner for the past decade and a half or so I am excited with what I have been learning from the brain trust here at NEPA forum, but have a few questions as of yet.

I have heated at about 90%-100% with wood in my past 3 houses so I have some experience with heating with hand-fired stoves. The house I am in now is an old farm house in the mountains of central WV that we have been remodeling and insulating a bit at a time.

It is somewhere in the 1700-1800 square feet range depending on how much of it we open up to heat. Right now I am heating it with a Jotul Oslo, but have plans to switch to a Hitzer 30-95 unless someone can tell me of a better choice.

The issue at hand is that I have several cords of wood since I like to keep at least a couple of winters ahead. I have read that the 30-95 will burn wood with the hopper removed, but wonder how well this stove would actual burn up my wood pile over the next few years during the mild part of the fall/spring.

I know that the firebox is smaller than what I am use to, but most of my wood is cut short enough to fit into the firebox so that should not be a consideration. Anyone have any advice or comments that I should take into consideration during this switch over? Also any advice on the 30-95 or any other stove that might work out better for me?

Also since I have never bought coal before, I have been to the two closest dealers that I know about and have got prices for the 3 brands of bagged coal that they carry. (Reading, Kimmel, Blaschak) They are selling for $255 (R/K) a ton at one dealer and $292 (B) a ton at the other.

I will be looking for a bulk dealer at some point and would appreciate any leads to that end! I will probably end up bringing in a truck load from NEPA if I can't find a good bulk dealer locally. I will need to learn a bit about burning coal and find out what my stove likes to burn first, so I have a little time to find a good source first.

I know that this is the slow season for this forum, but any advice or leads would be greatly appreciated!

SD

:)


 
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Coalfire
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Post by Coalfire » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 5:30 pm

Hi sheepdog,
I have no experience with the hitzers, but they do seem like a decent stove. From your 1800sqft measuement though I would go with the 50-93. Personally I think it is easier to go with a larger stove and throttle it back rather then keeping after one that is to small and pushed to the limits. I looked at Hitzers website and they said that the 30-95 is good for 2000sqft, so you are getting close to that. Just my two cents someone else will chime in on the Hitzers.
Have a great day, Eric

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 5:34 pm

In my experience hand-fed coal stoves do burn wood...but not nearly as well as a dedicated wood stove. Rather that buy a combo stove just so you can burn up your remaining firewood I suggest that you sell the wood and buy the coal stove you want.

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 7:22 pm

Hitzer stoves are great, solid units. Regarding sizing the model you'll choose, I offer my 2 cents that it would depend on the type and condition of your existing central heating system and how tight your improvements make the house. My house has a ducted hot air system with an oil fired furnace, both about 11 years old. The Vigilant II that supplies most of the heat is rated at 50k BTU. I use 3-5 ton a year heating ~ 3k sq. ft. The furnace runs a little when the weather stays in the cloudy low twenties to higher teens. If I use the coal stove as much as is comfortably possible in the spring and fall (with out too much widow stating), I'll use < 100 gal. of #2 in a season. Before I switched to coal, the #2 usage was factored up by 8+ times. I prefer to have it run a little throughout the season since it's there. If we have to go somewhere in the deep of winter, the fact that the furnace runs a bit from time to time gives me confidence that it can do the job when I'm not there to know for sure. If the oil furnace ever dies of old age or I rust out, I'll install a combination unit in its place. I'll miss being in the room with the hand fed.

I've used all three brands of coal to a degree, mostly Reading bulk pea and nut tan ash that I get locally. There's variability in the quality because they work so many different sources, some of which coal berner confirms comes from old piles. I've always had good luck with what the local yard's bulk, especially good quality the past two years. I've read that most of the issues others have are with pieces of wood in rice that could plug their feed system and sometims bridging ash. I've found wood in every brand I've burned. The dozen or so bags of Blashack white ash nut gave me no complaints but is wasn't as good as the Reading nut of the past two years but better than the previous years' Readding. IMO, that's the variability factor from a huge old company. The one bag of Kimmels I got from Wood'ncoal worked well but others will have to say more - one bag isn't any experience at all. Once you're set up and learn to use coal in the Hitzer, try a few dozen bags of each so you get a feel for it. IMHO, you should stay with one brand for your first season because switching to coal, you'll have alot to learn. Limit your variables the first season. That's how it was for me after wood burning for 20+ years. Hopefully you'll find a bulk dealer that makes a run to one of the other deep mines to give you a real comparison.

Either way, you'll enjoy the switch to coal. The heat is more even, tending frequencies are 1/2 the work and last twice as long. The air, inside and out, isn't wood smoke tinged [/i](nice once in a while) and there's a lot less dirt once you hone your technique. What's not to like! :)

 
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SheepDog68
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Post by SheepDog68 » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 7:55 pm

Coalfire wrote:Hi sheepdog,
I have no experience with the hitzers, but they do seem like a decent stove. From your 1800sqft measuement though I would go with the 50-93. Personally I think it is easier to go with a larger stove and throttle it back rather then keeping after one that is to small and pushed to the limits. I looked at Hitzers website and they said that the 30-95 is good for 2000sqft, so you are getting close to that. Just my two cents someone else will chime in on the Hitzers.
Have a great day, Eric

The size of the stove has decidedly been a question that I have wrestled over!!

The 50-93 if I understand it correctly does not have a hopper that is removable so that I can burn wood, which is of course the first concern, the second issue is that I heat with a 60K BTU Oslo right now and I have heard the the coal stoves should be run in the upper mid range instead of low idle to get the most out of them, this might make the 354 and the 50-93 too big for my application! (I would appreciate more info on this specially if you think I have this incorrect.)

I have looked at the Coal Chubby as well as the Hitzer 354, 254, 50-93 and the 30-95. I fear that the 354 and the 50-93 would over heat the house or have to be run too low to be efficient! The Chubby (Which seemingly can't burn wood), 254 and the 354 don't have a hopper which is doable even though a hopper would be nice, which kind of left me with the 30-95.

Yea I could sell my fire wood, but I like the idea that I could burn wood if I had to for some reason.

If I am looking at the above suppositions incorrectly I would appreciate being enlightened by the collective wisdom of everyone who has been to this dance before!!

SD

:)

 
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SheepDog68
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Coal Size/Type: Harmony Nut, Lehigh Nut
Other Heating: Happy thoughts, good wool and a little propane.

Post by SheepDog68 » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 8:28 pm

Oh I should mention that the old farm house does not have any central system in it at this time. One is in the works for probably next summer once we get further along in the remodel!

The Oslo has been our only heat for several years, except for a couple of portable electric heaters that we use to keep the pipes from freezing if we are away from the house for longer than the Oslo will hold a fire!

Something that will hold a fire longer like one of the hopper coal stoves has some attraction to us since we could keep the house warm for a longer time period when we have a long day!

Not sure how much not having any other systems will change the equation, but I thought it should be mentioned!

SD


:)

 
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VigIIPeaBurner
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 8:46 pm

Oh yes, I've got some heel marks on that dance floor! :D I thought long and hard about bringing the Defiant to this place before committing to coal.

It's difficult to decide what stove to buy. Fabricators rate them either by sq. footage or BTU output. BTUs are easier to normalize because you can relate heat sources more accurately. I've dug around and found stoves rated at ~ 50k when the mfg states 1500 - 2000 ft sq.. I'm heating ~3000 ft with this 50k BTU stove and my oil burner is rated at ~ 125k BTU output. I'd bet with a 65k BTO/hr stove, the oil would never have to suplament with additional BTUs in this place.

From my yrs. with a old Defiant, I'd have to really pound the wood to it to come close to its rating of 50k BTU. The Vigilant II coal with the same rated output just cruises along from "idle" to max or anywhere in between for 12 + hours. Fill a coal stove up, reduce the air and you won't have any problems if you maintain the proper draft. Draft is the limiting factor with a coal stove filled with quality coal. You chimney plays a very important part in this equation. Output is based more on grate area & firebox size/configuration. Coal burns best in a deep firebed left undisturbed as long as possible. Many of us cut the fire box size down in the warmer periods to maintain a smaller but deep firebed. I do this with my dinky stove (see video link in my signature block).

Tell us more about your chimney. It will help.


 
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SheepDog68
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Other Heating: Happy thoughts, good wool and a little propane.

Post by SheepDog68 » Sat. Jul. 24, 2010 11:16 pm

Hmmm!

More to think about!!

I had not given any consideration to the possibility of reducing the size of the firebox for warmer weather!! I will have to give that some thought as it seems like it would be a good idea.

The chimney is stone with clay tile liner that was later lined with stainless steel that seems to work well for wood! It has a clean-out door at the bottom that I am likely loosing some draft through, but I could always seal that up a bit if needed.

I don't have any way of measuring draft, but the chimney seems to be high enough from the adjacent roof to do the job at least so far. We get a bit of wind so I figured a baro damper would be in order with the change over.

Thanks for pointing out your vid as it gave me new directions to explore!!

SD


:)

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 12:12 am

The 50-93 has aremovable hopper...
With the EZ-Flo removable hopper design this stove meets customer satisfaction with quality and convenience.
http://www.hitzer.com/products/stove/Model-50_93- ... per-Stove/
So if you are buying a new stove it will not be a problem...
You can Idle it down real nice and it will hold more coal than the 30-95...
This will give you a longer burn time...
The smaller stove will need to be refilled more often during the colder weather...
Another choice in hopper stoves is the DS machine line...
If electric fails often or you do not like the sound of a fan running...

I have the 130,000 btu/hr Basement #4 and it is a tank...
Holds 175# of coal and I can idle it way back...
It too has a removable hopper if I ever wanted to burn wood...
Which I do not want to do...
Sell most of the wood and buy coal...
I once heated with wood and a Vigilant wood burner...
4 cord of wood and 6 hour feedings just for one season...
Hot cold hot cold...
Then a Harman Mark II fell into my lap...
Nice price, 12 hour feedings but not enough BTU's for the dead of winter...
Had to feed every 8 hours when the wind was howling...
Now with the Basement #4, 12 hour feedings in the dead of winter and 24 hour feedings spring/fall...
No fan noise just the tinkle of coal falling every so often in the hopper...
Does that old farm house still have the floor grates...
If so keep them and enjoy blowerless heat...
How much of the house did the wood burner heat and to what temps in the coldest months...
I have heard the the coal stoves should be run in the upper mid range instead of low idle to get the most out of them, this might make the 354 and the 50-93 too big for my application! (I would appreciate more info on this specially if you think I have this incorrect.)
The 50-93 is not too big... :lol:
I woud say running it in the 30-60% range is the sweet spot...
My stove runs between 175* and 300* most of the time...
425* when it gets really cold and 500* when it got really cold and windy...
It would be fine at 600* if I had to but have yet to need that much heat...
I keep the house 72-75* in the winter...
Last edited by CapeCoaler on Sat. Apr. 01, 2017 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: <removed dead link>

 
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Post by ceccil » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 12:18 am

Just another point to ponder. You say you don't currently have any heating system in place except your current wood burner. It would be wise to consider the type of system you will eventually install and make that at least part of your decision when buying a coal fired unit. If you plan on installing a boiler, I would seriously consider going with a coal boiler rather than any type of stove.

There are a few reasons for this:

- Sometimes it's hard to get even heat throughout the house with a stove. You may have already solved this to some extent being you have been using a stove for the past few yrs.

- A coal boiler can tie into your system along with another boiler so if the coal boiler goes down for some reason, the other boiler can take over with no loss of heating.

- A boiler is more efficient. (from what I have heard from others)

- A boiler depending on the model can run for days without tending whereas a hand fired stove will need to be tended to at least daily and probably twice daily.

There are probably more reasons that I can't think of at this time. Some others may chime in also.

Just a FYI. I run a stoker stove. It does a very good job of heating but I now wished I knew more when I started and started with a boiler vs. a stove. Even if it meant staying on NG for a few more yrs. until I could purchase a boiler.

Good luck!!

 
CapeCoaler
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Post by CapeCoaler » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 12:29 am

A boiler is best of all systems ;)
You could put in a boiler and just hook a water to air heat exchanger quick and dirty...
It would solve the away time problem too...
A refurbished boiler would not be too expensive but not as cheap as a new stove...
The stove could always be sold when it was time for the boiler to move in...
You know how rehabbing a house goes...
3x as long and 3x as expensive as planned... :lol:

 
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Post by VigIIPeaBurner » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 3:26 am

Wow, you've just been given a great deal of good ideas you can decide about! :shock: All really good ones to think through.

If you do decide to go with the stove option, there are a few more details about your chimney to ponder.
  • Is the chimney internal or external?
  • What diameter is the SS liner?
  • What diameter does will your stove require?
  • A cap on a coal stove chimney is good. There's generally less heat going up vs. a wood stove.
Here's another plus going for the boiler choice as a central system: "free" domestic hot water during the heating season. :)

 
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Post by Coalfire » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 6:37 am

Hi sheepdog,
I see there have been some more post, but wanted to respond anyway. I am not sure about this more efficent in the upper mid range talk. I belive that is something Hitzers says, not saying they are wrong, but I have idled stoves at very low fires with no problems. In fact my DS machine can be idled low enough that you can place your hand on it. Amos from DS told me that when I bought my stove that it will idle lower than any other on the market, don't know if that is true but I have no reason to doubt him. The one other thing I wanted to say, and I think Cape coaler touched on this but give DS Machines a look at, they have a good line of stoves with removable hoppers while some of them have no hoppers, but can have them added. Just some thoughts.
Have a great day, Eric

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 7:27 am

In my other post I forgot to mention that I used to heat my house with a Model 82 Hitzer stove; it was a very well built unit and really cranked out the heat! The only disadvantage I found was the huge firebox seemed to be more prone to "puff-backs" if you added fresh coal really aggressively. Another stove for you to consider is the Alaska Kodiak, it is hopper-fed and holds up to 120 lbs. of coal. Their website says high burn produces over 100,000 BTU's/hour and the stove can be run as low as 15,000 BTU's/hour. The only catch with the Kodiak is the hopper...I'm not sure if it can be removed to burn wood.

After burning in stoves for a few years I went to a boiler, now I encourage people to go right for a stoker boiler from the start. I see that you have no central heat in your house at this time, so that would really add to the expense.

 
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Post by SMITTY » Sun. Jul. 25, 2010 7:38 am

Sheepdog, I don't want to be the one that pees on your fire, but there's some things you need to know about coal & stainless steel. Flyash will stick to the inside to some extent - no biggie. It becomes a biggie if it is not cleaned as soon as you shut down for the season. Moisture + flyash = acid. In some places it's worse than others. My basement is one of the worst on this board so keep that in mind when you see these pics below. You'll have to keep that liner clean if you want it to last. SS liners are pretty much useless for coal, IMHO. The terra cotta liner will outlast that 50:1.

Take a look at my black steel pipe, then the 304 SS connector pipe after 1 summer sitting uncleaned in my wet basement:
As far as heating goes, I heat a similar sized home with a 92K BTU Harman Mark III (no hopper on that one). House came with a 113K BTU oil boiler. It's not insulated very well, plus we're a bit north of you so you could get away with a smaller stove no problem. If I had to do it again, I would have got a dual-fuel boiler: Coal/oil. That way I'd just keep the hopper full, crank up the T-stat, & empty ashes occasionally.


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