Baro and manual dampers

Den034071
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Post By: Den034071 » Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 7:45 pm

Joesek look on search forum for a guy called Cole Berner who is Quite An Expert on Gibraltars .Post is in 2008 era .He is an very smart guy about Gibratars .Its worth a look . jack

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Lightning
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Post By: Lightning » Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 7:55 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 5:52 pm
Tried it a week ago and I wasn't impressed with what a baro did for my #6 base heater's performance.

If I wanted more, or less heat, I couldn't just adjust the MPD and primary dampers to get what I needed.
You were using the MPD and baro at if same time? :?

If you need more draft for faster recover after tending the simple fix is to pin the baro door closed until its lit up. I rarely ever need to pin it shut, actually I don't even do that any more. My fire recovers in 15 minutes with 50 pounds of fresh at -.03 draft. This handicapped heap of scrap metal has no trouble getting the heat output I want at any OAT at that same draft pressure. I find it perplexing that a prestige antique couldn't out run it.

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Sunny Boy
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Post By: Sunny Boy » Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 8:20 pm

Lightning wrote:
Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 7:55 pm
You were using the MPD and baro at if same time? :?

If you need more draft for faster recover after tending the simple fix is to pin the baro door closed until its lit up. I rarely ever need to pin it shut, actually I don't even do that any more. My fire recovers in 15 minutes with 50 pounds of fresh at -.03 draft. This handicapped heap of scrap metal has no trouble getting the heat output I want at any OAT at that same draft pressure. I find it perplexing that a prestige antique couldn't out run it.

The baro is "part" of the chimney system. It's an 8 inch Field Control in the stove pipe of the oil/electric furnace in the same chimney that the #6 is plumbed into. The oil burner is turned off and the furnace is just heating using it's electric plenum, so no need for a baro.

Being influenced by the #6 using the chimney, the baro was making the #6 very slow to respond for refueling, and for any increases in heat demand, so I temporarily blocked it off. Made the #6 much more responsive to damper changes. ;)

Paul

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Lightning
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Post By: Lightning » Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 8:27 pm

This burn is 24 hours old and still has the ability to produce 120 degrees in the warm air supply during a heat call with mean temp of 20 degrees outside. The thermostat just satisfied as I wrote this post. Baros are magic, time to tend my fire. ;)
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Lightning
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Post By: Lightning » Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 9:00 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 8:20 pm
The baro is "part" of the chimney system. It's an 8 inch Field Control in the stove pipe of the oil/electric furnace in the same chimney that the #6 is plumbed into. The oil burner is turned off and the furnace is just heating using it's electric plenum, so no need for a baro.

Being influenced by the #6 using the chimney, the baro was making the #6 very slow to respond for refueling, and for any increases in heat demand, so I temporarily blocked it off. Made the #6 much more responsive to damper changes. ;)

Paul
Oh okay, that makes better sense. The baro wasn't in the exhaust stream of the #6 nor was it being used as the primary draft pressure control device. I get it now. :)

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scalabro
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Post By: scalabro » Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 9:12 pm

Can someone please explain why (physics please) all three of these devices can’t be used together to maximize efficiency?

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Post By: oliver power » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 2:26 am

I might just as well jump in here........... :lol: . I agree; Lots of variables. For starters, the ONLY place a barometric damper was known to be used that I remember; was in oil/kerosene heaters/furnaces.

Manual dampers were used in wood / coal stoves, back before the "air tight" stoves come along. If you had no manual damper, lots of heat was lost up the chimney. It wasn't a matter of "Gee, which way does the stove run better". It was a matter of staying warm, or freezing. It was a matter of burning your house down, or not. The manual damper held the heat down in the stove, which radiated out into the living quarters. This isn't guessing, or theory on my part. It's Fact! It's the way it was.

Then along comes the modern coal stoves: Lets start with the HITZERs (50-93 & 30-95). Let me also throw in the Vermont Castings Vigilant, and the Harman Mark series. The install directions for these stoves said "Do Not Obstruct The Stove Pipe In Any Way". Meaning; "Do Not Add Any Damper".

Well, I wasn't so sure about that. So, when I installed my HITZERs, I also installed a manual damper for safety purposes only. Sure enough, the manual damper was not needed. I left it wide open, eventually pulling it out. The bi-metallic damper controlled the HITZERs. If set up/adjusted correctly, the bi-metallic damper does respond instantly to wind gusts. When the wind draws on the chimney, the tin flapper door closes.
A couple years after buying my HITZERs, the barometric dampers started being pushed for coal stoves. However, by that time, I had a good understanding of my HITZERs, and realized a good strong wind gust was beneficial for sipping air through the ash pan vents. Long story short: I'm staying with; NO DAMPER NEEDED on the 50-93, or 30-95. Vermont Casting Vigilant has a built in damper. Harman Mark Series should have a damper if chimney has strong draw.

Now for the D.S. installation: Part ways through the installation directions, the manual reads "if you haven't already done so, now is time to install a Manual, OR Barometric Damper". Well, because I wanted to play, I installed both. After months, and months of playing, I chose the barometric damper over the manual damper for one reason. That reason is; I kept forgetting to open the manual damper. I'd go to tend the stove, and smoke / fumes would roll out the door. Ya see; both dampers are installed behind the warming shelf (out of site, out of mind). I'd open the door, fumes would roll out. I'd have to get up, run around back of warming shelf, and open the damper. That got old fast. The barometric damper is automatic.

I also realized, even though the D.S. has it's own version of a bi-metallic damper, some kind of damper is needed in the pipe. This is because of the non-adjustable over fire air. Without a damper in the pipe, the over fire air takes heat up the chimney. The D.S. circulator stoves need a damper for holding heat down in the stove. The best draft setting is the factory setting of -.06. .......and the reason -.06 works best is because of fire recovery at tending time. At the same time, over fire air is needed for diluting gas, which pockets in the D.S.. I've had some serious explosions playing with the over fire air holes.

I could go on, and on. Bottom line is what's already been said: Every situation, every chimney, every stove, and damper preferences are different. They are not only different, but continually evolve as well.
Last edited by oliver power on Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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oliver power
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Post By: oliver power » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 2:35 am

scalabro wrote:
Tue. Feb. 13, 2018 9:12 pm
Can someone please explain why (physics please) all three of these devices can’t be used together to maximize efficiency?
I can explain............................................No I Can't :lol:

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scalabro
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Post By: scalabro » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 7:44 am

That’s was an earful.....next try.....🤪

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Sunny Boy
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Post By: Sunny Boy » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:10 am

Very well put Oliver.

Scott,

I don't know as if you can get a good answer to, why not all three methods of draft control (bi-metal flap, baro, MPD). Reason being is there are no, carved-in-stone rules about dampers. Just look at how much this topic is "debated" (and berated :lol: ).

As has been said, some draft controls work better in certain setups than others. And, in some stove designs, and/or, setups, more than one draft control is redundant and does not add any benefit. However, in some rare instances, such as excessive draft strength, more than one type may combine to work well.

As for using all three, I can't think of an instance where they are needed. Maybe someone else can ?

Paul

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Post By: freetown fred » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:13 am

I would love to hear how much coal use is being saved using a Baro. compared to not?

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Sunny Boy
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Post By: Sunny Boy » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:33 am

freetown fred wrote:
Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:13 am
I would love to hear how much coal use is being saved using a Baro. compared to not?

I can tell you one type of stove a baro would cause more problems than solve - cook stoves.

I can't imagine ever having one on a cooking stove, what with needing to change cooking/baking temps before and during cooking times, then dial it back in between. Plus, with the small fireboxes of ranges needing to be refueled more often during the day...... :roll:

Paul

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Post By: Lightning » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:36 am

freetown fred wrote:
Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:13 am
I would love to hear how much coal use is being saved using a Baro. compared to not?
I don't claim any coal is saved by either a baro or MPD.
scalabro wrote:
Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 7:44 am
That’s was an earful.....next try.....🤪
I'm working on it...

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scalabro
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Post By: scalabro » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:38 am

I would bet that on a large “brick set” hotel size coal range, that is always at cooking/baking temps, a baro would be ideal.

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Post By: windyhill4.2 » Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:43 am

freetown fred wrote:
Wed. Feb. 14, 2018 8:13 am
I would love to hear how much coal use is being saved using a Baro. compared to not?
I guess the same question could be asked about the coal savings with a bi-metal t-stat.

Both would be a good study,but would need someone with lsayre's mathamagican computational skills to get it right.
For me, i would love a bi-metal flapper on my stove,but no way am i going to do that modification to my $100 stove.So, the baro goes a long way toward that "automatic" temperature control on my stove,hooked to my chimney which can go from normal of .03 & then a wind gust storms over the chimney & the draft shoots up to .10 & even higher.My 8" baro generally keeps the draft below .08, but some wind gust will pull a .10 or higher even with the baro wide open.An all nite wind gust event like that can drastically change the heat output from my stove.The baro keeps things from getting totally out of control.

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