YOU think coal is expensive

 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Fri. Sep. 30, 2022 9:50 am

franpipeman wrote:
Thu. Sep. 29, 2022 8:17 am
Had we followed Jimmy Carters advice and promoted renewable energy seriously 30 years ago,
We have been promoting it since his administration and since the 2000's a 30% federal tax credit on home installs of solar typically paired with a 20% state tax credit or some other incentive. In some states they aren't even paying a connection fee for net metering. What else do you expect? Free?

The reason we don't rely on these products is quite simple, they are expensive and cannot provide power on demand. There is no product in the history of mankind that ever needed any incentive to be used if it was cheaper or better. Solar and wind cannot and will never replace fossil fuels simply because it is not on demand. Because it is reliant on conventional power it necessarily increases the cost of that power from under utilized power plants.

The national platform of the Democrats is to promote renewable energy and the primary way they do that is to make the competing products like coal, oil and gas increasingly expensive to use and/or mandates. When someone says to me look at the market share solar an wind is taking, my response is "It's called a mandate" which nearly every state has for utilities. The idea that we have not promoted these alternatives is laughable.

While you can't lay the entire blame for the current state of things at the Democrats feet they certainly hold some of it.

The reason for the problems in Europe are staring you right in the face, in particular Germany. They have heavily promoted the use of renewable energy, so much so that on an ideal day they have surplus energy from renewable energy. Why the problem?

Simply put they closed nuclear plants and coal plants that can be domestically supplied in favor or unreliable renewable sources and unreliable Russian supplied gas because it produces less CO2.

As side note make sure if you are ever traveling in California to bring a lamp, you'll need it in the hotel room. It's like walking into a dimly cave in some of these rooms....but it's progress right?


 
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Post by franpipeman » Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:06 am

Currently oil and coal are making themselves more expensive with their boom and bust cycle.i will say we are doing our part of the Ukraine war effort by exporting our anthracite to the needing economies. One could ,if you support ukraine support anthracite exports , hence increased domestic cost.
Canada tries to stabilize maple syrup prices and supply by keeping large stock on hand to mitigate spikes and depression perhaps we should be more diligent with things like that .
I am finding even Counties bordering the Pa coal region like Berks Many homes are installing photovoltaic systems.
We are in transition and it will take time , for new we need all forms of responsible energy sources.

I believe but dont have documentation domestic oil companies receive tax credits for oil exploration
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/wha ... ssil-fuels

We should have kept Three mile Nuclear plant open even if it costs a little more, That decision was made by a republican legislature in Pa. I wonder if todays fossil prices would have made keeping three mile island open cost effective

 
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Post by k-2 » Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:27 am

Richard S. wrote:
Fri. Sep. 30, 2022 9:50 am
The reason for the problems in Europe are staring you right in the face, in particular Germany. They have heavily promoted the use of renewable energy, so much so that on an ideal day they have surplus energy from renewable energy. Why the problem?
Simply put they closed nuclear plants and coal plants that can be domestically supplied in favor or unreliable renewable sources and unreliable Russian supplied gas because it produces less CO2.
I think they are doing the same thing in California,and getting the same result.

 
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Post by Richard S. » Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:52 am

franpipeman wrote:
Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:06 am
Currently oil and coal are making themselves more expensive with their boom and bust cycle.
I don't disagree and for example Russia starting a war is something out of the control of most anyone. However government policies leading up to that have an impact as well.

The bottom line is the national platform of the Democrats is to promote renewable energy and the primary policies they use make the use of fossil expensive. This exacerbates any issues on the supply side.


I believe but dont have documentation domestic oil companies receive tax credits for oil exploration
I haven't looked these figures up in a few years but the federal tax credit or subsidies as they are commonly called given to the oil and gas industry are about 3 billion. It may seem like a lot but to put that into perspective it's a fraction of one penny per gallon of gasoline or as another example Exxon's revenue in a few days.

We should have kept Three mile Nuclear plant open even if it costs a little more,


Both coal and nuclear are in the same boat, they provide base load power but to be cost effective they need to be run constantly with short down times for maintenance. A coal plant run at maximum capacity over it's lifetime that might span 70+ years will provide the cheapest power because you are maximizing the capital investment, nothing else is even close.

The market for base load power is dwindling because of the ever increasing up and down cycle from intermittent power production from renewable resources. Gas is much more favorable for this market. In the past gas plants met intermediate and smaller plants for peak load that would only be run occasionally because they are more suitable for that up and down cycle, even when the gas was significantly more expensive than coal per BTU.

If you want a prime example of the expense of this demand being put on conventional plants you may recall that coal plant in New England where they were protesting and blocking the train tracks. At the time they were only running it about 3 or 4 weeks a year just to meet demand during extreme hot/cold. There is no alternative other than building another plant because it needs to be reliable on demand power. I don't know what the cost of the power from that plant is but if you wanted to add in the cost of not fully utilizing the investment and the annual costs of maintenance it's going to be some of the most expensive power on the planet.

Keep in mind that while gas plants are more suitable for this up and down cycle they are still also bearing an increased expense because you are not fully utilizing the capital investment no matter what the fuel is.

 
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Post by Richard S. » Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:57 am

k-2 wrote:
Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:27 am
I think they are doing the same thing in California,and getting the same result.
California is certainly on track to be the next Germany. They are nut jobs, they recently denied building a plant for....... wait for it....... water.

https://apnews.com/article/climate-california-dro ... e19abe46a1

Environmentalism is important but you need to strike a balance between what is good for the environment and what is practical.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 10:57 am

Many of the enviro-mentals would have us all sitting in the dark, cold and starving just to, "save the planet". I've seen it for 60 years and it's only getting worse - as well exampled by many programs on the left coast. Nut-jobs like them you'll never be able to, "strike a balance with".

Paul

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 3:15 pm

The fallacy of "Green power" in California is more about green backs for the power companies and less to do with the environment.



Paul


 
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Post by oros35 » Mon. Oct. 03, 2022 1:16 pm

franpipeman wrote:
Sat. Oct. 01, 2022 9:06 am
We should have kept Three mile Nuclear plant open even if it costs a little more, That decision was made by a republican legislature in Pa. I wonder if todays fossil prices would have made keeping three mile island open cost effective
I don't know the specifics of TMI, but financially speaking of the plant I work for, We need about $24/MWhr to break even. A few years ago were were in the $22-25 range, thus we announced our shut down of 3 plants if things didn't change. We did get a small change (plus bankruptcy) that allowed us to continue to run. Now power prices have been around the $100/MWhr so we are rolling in the money. (our budget hasn't increased here though :cry: )

So yes, it is very possible that TMI, and some other plants would still be running with todays numbers. What is unfortunate is it takes around 3 years to orchestrate a shut down, and once done, that plant will never come back online.

 
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Post by franpipeman » Mon. Oct. 03, 2022 2:26 pm

while im not Paul Harvey , here is the rest of the story

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.5020

 
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Post by franpipeman » Mon. Oct. 03, 2022 2:37 pm

franpipeman wrote:
Mon. Oct. 03, 2022 2:26 pm
while im not Paul Harvey , here is the rest of the story

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.5020

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/three-mile-islan ... sl/554402/

 
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Post by k-2 » Tue. Oct. 04, 2022 9:25 am

oros35 wrote:
Mon. Oct. 03, 2022 1:16 pm
So yes, it is very possible that TMI, and some other plants would still be running with todays numbers. What is unfortunate is it takes around 3 years to orchestrate a shut down, and once done, that plant will never come back online.
That too bad cuz at the rate power generation eats up Nat gas this big supply glut we have wont last forever. And the long lead up time to build a new nuke plant if it even happens wont bring relief anytime soon.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 2:11 pm

Just before the Carter election my dad’s boss (part owner of ADS, who only had an 8th grade education) said if Carter was elected the interest rates would climb to 12%. The rate, in fact, went to 14.5%.

So here we are again today, the same stupid ideas and the same stupid wreck less spending. So, here’s “the rest of the story”…

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pains-pump-could ... -lost-pump

… and if you think it’s bad now, just watch how bad it gets after the mid-terms and possibly even with GOP wins in the house and senate because the damage has already been done. God help us if the Democrats remain in power with Biden at the helm. We’re screwed if that would be the case.


They don’t just want to slow the use of fossil fuels, they want to eliminate their use totally.

Wood stoves are next and the “new deal” called the inflation act will come after wood burners as well. They want control over everything you do. They can’t get taxes from firewood cutters selling to cash clients, so they’ll try to eliminate them eventually. The cost of stove testing is such now that unless you have super deep pockets no newcomer’s will come to the stove market. With the first EPA wood stove regulations they killed hundreds of small stove businesses. Those in the wood stove markets now…want more extensive testing of coal stoves too, so they’re going to come for them as well. You’ll never convince them any coal is clean to burn. Spend some time on wood burning forums and you’ll see. Even before the scamdemic several stoves were already priced above $4000 and they are rising above that quickly before this winter.

The sad thing is some folks think they making bad decisions. They fact is they know they’re NOT making bad decisions, the fact is they are making INTENTIONAL decisions with known outcomes.
Last edited by Hoytman on Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 2:40 pm

I think the Mayor is spot on.

They (Democrats) need to stop making the cost of using fossil fuels so high by idiotic decisions, and both parties should come together to make fossil energy more affordable while at the same time making other energy means more affordable and thus more common as well to take some of the dependency off of fossil fuels. Balance them all, as the Mayor has stated, don’t try and eliminate fossil fuel use. They can use American ingenuity, American technology, and American labor to do it all if they would. Rather than make China rich through and by Chinese cheap/slave labor.

For any President, now or in the future, on either side of the isle, to say that to Make America Great Again or to put America’s interest first is wrong…is just wrong. Such people should be shipped elsewhere to live if they don’t like and love this country. Try spewing your hate of another country in that country and see how far you get.

I personally think there is an underlying reason they want it eliminated besides the environment. I think it goes much further than that.

If they eliminate fossil use globally then jobs are lost here and elsewhere.

What happens to this land in the U.S. where this now, undug, coal resides? Who maintains control of those lands? Who decides how these lands can be used? Who owns the mineral and water rights once the lands are closed and/or resold/repurposed?

The answer to this, at least in this country, is where the yellow brick road leads…to the goose that laid the golden egg. Someone is looking this far into the future. Who? Why?
Last edited by Hoytman on Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 3:00 pm

The other big oil producing countries are glad to see us cutting our production. Under the previous administration we were energy independent to the point of exporting and that was competition to them that drove down the price per barrel.

Paul

 
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Post by Hoytman » Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 3:29 pm

:clap:
Sunny Boy wrote:
Thu. Oct. 06, 2022 3:00 pm
The other big oil producing countries are glad to see us cutting our production. Under the previous administration we were energy independent to the point of exporting and that was competition to them that drove down the price per barrel.

Paul
Exactly!

So what does Biden do? Announces the real ease of more oil from our strategic reserves. OPEC responds a day or two later in kind, by cutting production by so many million barrels a day.


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