Afghanistan Withdrawal

Post Reply
 
User avatar
Richard S.
Mayor
Posts: 15183
Joined: Fri. Oct. 01, 2004 8:35 pm
Location: NEPA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Post by Richard S. » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 1:09 am

To start off with I will state I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and would still support it today if there was a do over. You simply cannot ignore the fact it was where Al-Aqaeda was based. I also agree with the Biden Administrations decision to stick with the decisions made under Trump to leave. We have been there long enough and if we have been unable to accomplish our goals by now we aren't going to.

The questions I have today is how did 4 Presidential administration manage to screw this up so badly, especially what we have seen transpire over the past few days. Much like the Obama administration was surprised by the "JV Team" in Iraq the Biden administration has been surprised by the Taliban. How did they not see this coming?

Thousands of US servicemen lives loss, tens of thousands permanently disabled for life and more than 2 trillion dollars. There is also the enormous amount of Afghanis that have lost their lives, those we have abandoned who will lose their lives and those that remain to live under a brutally repressive Islamic fundamentalist regime. The only thing we have to show for all these sacrifices is people so desperate to leave that country they are falling off of US military planes as they take off from Kabul airport. We have to be better than this.


 
User avatar
johnjoseph
Member
Posts: 9299
Joined: Mon. Sep. 15, 2014 6:05 pm
Location: Aroostook County, Maine
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Other Heating: pellet stove, oil boiler

Post by johnjoseph » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:39 am

After 911, the thought was let's contain terrorists to the middle east and implement a government modeled after our own. Hindsight is 20/20...there was never an exit plan from Afghanistan, Iraq and for that matter, the middle east. Trump started the exit process and Biden followed through; boots on the ground didn't accomplish the expected outcome and it wasn't expected things would fall apart so quickly upon our departure. Simply put, from the near east to the far east the thought process is far from similar to our own. Complacency and lack of cultural competence have played and will continue to effect our response across the globe. The "war machine" is a money maker; it's not the soul factor of failure, but a significant contribution to "staying put" in the middle east. Side note, Russia or USSR had much the same experience, but a different motivator.

 
User avatar
warminmn
Member
Posts: 8110
Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt

Post by warminmn » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:53 am

Ive never seen people so scared to fight for themselves in my life as the citizens of that country. They knew what they had to go back to and never put up a fight even though they had weapons and plenty of reasons to fight. If nothing else Im surprised the women didnt fight as they had more to lose. They almost all just surrendered and then they went to the airport to try to leave.

That said, how would we ever have had an exit strategy that didnt involve the Taliban or similar from just taking over again? Another 20 years of occupation?

Im glad we're out but I really feel bad for those in this country (and allies) who fought for every square inch of real estate in that craphole with blood and lives only to let it go back to where it started. I dont know the answer to it.

 
User avatar
tsb
Member
Posts: 2616
Joined: Wed. Jul. 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: Douglassville, Pa
Stoker Coal Boiler: Binford 2000
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Pioneer top vent
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Saey Hanover II
Baseburners & Antiques: Grander Golden Oak , Glenwood # 6
Coal Size/Type: All of them

Post by tsb » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:55 am

How did the withdrawal go so badly ? A woke General staff and a piss poor State department. A Washington elite that are used to doing nothing and getting a big paycheck. Other than that, I have no idea.

 
User avatar
franpipeman
Member
Posts: 689
Joined: Fri. Jan. 11, 2008 4:27 pm
Location: Wernersville pa
Stoker Coal Boiler: efm 520 stoker fitzgibbons pressure vessel
Hand Fed Coal Stove: harman, russo
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: alpine propane condensing boiler radiant floor

Post by franpipeman » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 8:06 am

the nations that the USA built after WW2 where nations of a similar culture. The middle eastern countries culture is tremendously different than ours. We didnt know the end game when we entered and it morphed into nation building except we were hoping for our version of a nation and its Apparent the Afghans dont embrace that version. We have failed.Each administration would prefer not to withdraw on their watch as it is distasteful , messy ,horrific and ugly. It takes courage to admit one was not successful.

 
User avatar
Richard S.
Mayor
Posts: 15183
Joined: Fri. Oct. 01, 2004 8:35 pm
Location: NEPA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Post by Richard S. » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 9:07 am

warminmn wrote:
Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:53 am
Ive never seen people so scared to fight for themselves in my life as the citizens of that country.
It seems the consensus from the comments I have heard from ex US military commanders is poor and corrupt government leadership. Even down to the soldiers/security forces themselves. The one story I read is where they armed a police force, they abandoned their post taking their shiny new guns with them so they could set up their own checkpoint elsewhere to shake down travelers. You have to wonder if it has dawned on those people that perhaps that wasn't the greatest idea.

If a population has no faith in government and military leadership it's a lost cause. Especially if you are fighting a motivated force driven by an unwavering religious ideology.

 
User avatar
freetown fred
Member
Posts: 30293
Joined: Thu. Dec. 31, 2009 12:33 pm
Location: Freetown,NY 13803
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut

Post by freetown fred » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 9:38 am

That's pretty much been goin on since Korea Scott!! :(


 
franco b
Site Moderator
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed. Nov. 05, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: Kent CT
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Post by franco b » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 10:19 am

When a population regards its government as an alien occupying force it will eventually rebel against it.

The old Soviet Union had 70 years, yet still cracked into more pieces than the old Tsarist government had.

We understand more about the behavior of our pets than our own species.

Mexico lost Texas because it was settled with aliens.

 
User avatar
johnjoseph
Member
Posts: 9299
Joined: Mon. Sep. 15, 2014 6:05 pm
Location: Aroostook County, Maine
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Other Heating: pellet stove, oil boiler

Post by johnjoseph » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 10:22 am

warminmn wrote:
Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:53 am
That said, how would we ever have had an exit strategy that didnt involve the Taliban or similar from just taking over again? Another 20 years of occupation?
Goals and objectives of obtainable tasks. It's not as simple as it sounds, but like anything, it should be realistically attainable. My drill instructor ensured we knew the following: prior planing prevents piss poor performance. I have subscribed to the following website:
Warontherocks.com
I may not agree with all they offer, but some I do. Just a different perspective.

The art of exiting war

https://warontherocks.com/2019/10/the-lost-art-of ... ing-a-war/

 
User avatar
warminmn
Member
Posts: 8110
Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt

Post by warminmn » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 4:29 pm

johnjoseph wrote:
Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 10:22 am
Goals and objectives of obtainable tasks. It's not as simple as it sounds, but like anything, it should be realistically attainable. My drill instructor ensured we knew the following: prior planing prevents piss poor performance. I have subscribed to the following website:
Warontherocks.com
I may not agree with all they offer, but some I do. Just a different perspective.

The art of exiting war

https://warontherocks.com/2019/10/the-lost-art-of ... ing-a-war/
That link is some deep thinking about having an exit strategy! Among other topics too.

 
User avatar
warminmn
Member
Posts: 8110
Joined: Tue. Feb. 08, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Land of 11,842 lakes
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Riteway 37
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite, lignite
Other Heating: Wood and wear a wool shirt

Post by warminmn » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 4:36 pm

Richard S. wrote:
Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 9:07 am
It seems the consensus from the comments I have heard from ex US military commanders is poor and corrupt government leadership. Even down to the soldiers/security forces themselves. The one story I read is where they armed a police force, they abandoned their post taking their shiny new guns with them so they could set up their own checkpoint elsewhere to shake down travelers. You have to wonder if it has dawned on those people that perhaps that wasn't the greatest idea.

If a population has no faith in government and military leadership it's a lost cause. Especially if you are fighting a motivated force driven by an unwavering religious ideology.
Ive worked with a few vets from the last 20 years of conflict but didnt talk to them much about their experiences unless they brought it up but I didnt dig them with questions much. One of my friends was in Desert Storm and didnt have a very high opinion of any of the people there. It was pretty much just nuke them.

 
User avatar
anthony7812
Member
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sat. Mar. 12, 2011 2:04 pm
Location: Colley,Pennsylvania
Stoker Coal Boiler: VanWert VA 400
Coal Size/Type: Buck/Anthracite

Post by anthony7812 » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 4:46 pm

Other than what we see in msm, it’s hard to gauge. Obviously it looks like a crap show, but what part of the exit plan failed? It sounds like zero input was taken from any military leadership by our president. Then again our military leadership has advised us to stay for 20 years… lost a few high school friends in Middle East since 05. I see it in the corporate world, too much asskissen and glory stealin to get higher got us here. I’ve even heard senior managers in prior business say” fake it until ya make it”. Sad really.

 
grumpy
Member
Posts: 12282
Joined: Sat. Jan. 02, 2010 12:28 am

Post by grumpy » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 6:29 pm

Oops .........
Last edited by grumpy on Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

 
grumpy
Member
Posts: 12282
Joined: Sat. Jan. 02, 2010 12:28 am

Post by grumpy » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 7:29 pm

Just learned we’re sending three of our best subs to the pacific, a very unusual move. There never out together.

A message to china I suspect..

 
User avatar
johnjoseph
Member
Posts: 9299
Joined: Mon. Sep. 15, 2014 6:05 pm
Location: Aroostook County, Maine
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Other Heating: pellet stove, oil boiler

Post by johnjoseph » Tue. Aug. 17, 2021 9:27 pm

CNO planned training exercises most likely...yearly exercise usually with some years bigger than others. Pacific and Atlantic fleet training exercise every year with allied countries. My guess is this years exercise involved max attack scenerios. Only guessing though, it's been 30 years since my last one.


Post Reply

Return to “The Coffee House”