Has anyone built a snow melt system?

 
waytomany?s
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Post by waytomany?s » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 8:08 am

I've been toying with the idea of installing a heated sidewalk since the KA6 I'm installing will be oversized for our current heating needs. What size pex and what kind? Is it possible to use antifreeze in the snowmelt loop only? What happens in a heat exchanger with that icy antifreeze?


 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 11:51 am

According to John Sigenthaler BTU/hr/sq ft for a snow melt system for residential purposes would be 80-125 btu, assuming you would be using half the 144,000 (?) btu for that boiler would allow you to snow melt approx 720 sq ft at a class 1 application which is not going to keep it snow free in the case of a heavy storm. I do believe as you make it a glycol mixture you lose some of the transferable BTU's. I wouldn't see why you could use a plate exchanger in conjunction with the boiler so as not to mix the boiler water with the snow melt.

Also keep in mind the KA6 has TWO places for domestic coils, you could easily just add another domestic coil to pull the snowmelt from I don't know what normal plate exchanger rates but the coil is pretty big that goes in there so that would be my recommended idea. I think they still use 1/2 pex and just space things closer in order to get more heat per sq ft. I'm looking in my book but don't see the tubing diameter called out, however as long as your loop is 250-300 ft or less you would fall in the kosher section, but with the glycol mixture that might cause more resistance

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 12:11 pm

https://www.keystoker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018 ... 7-17-2.pdf

The KA device has one heated water pipe coming out of it, if I read the manual correctly (like most other boilers , coal or otherwise fueled). See page 28 of the manual linked above..

You wish a zone that goes to the outside to melt ice/snow. This may require some type of heat exchanger - to take the heated water line from the KA system and transfer the heat to another non-connected glycol/water line that would service the walkways.

Its likely easy to make such a heat exchanger from scratch and/or find such that others have made.

Things to consider. Deciding the fluid (water solution) . Ethylene glycol (EG) is poisonous...a leak in the system would not be good. Propylene glycol (PG) is not poisonous but does breakdown easier than EG. PG is put into food products kek. Glycerin is another option to investigate. I would assume that a leak will occur and give some thought as to clean up costs - EG/PG/glycerin would get diluted with water but may not "vanish"..they all high boiling solvents that will stay there. Drinking water concerns - if on a well you may wish to avoid the possibility of contaminating your drinking water supply (investigation & due diligence needed). Glycerin is likely the best choice although more expensive. One should check and see what the result of from a leaky system. Pex is tough stuff and finding such examples may take some doing. Calling your insurance company to see if it would raise your rates may indicate the likelihood of system leaking and to see if a leak would be covered . People install these systems so I would try to see what the outcome was for leaky systems.

The size of the system is also a consideration. A 5 gal volume line is one thing, a 500 gal line is another. Maybe add panels for stairs outside too?

Plenty of sources for pex sizing needs online... I think 3/4" would be fine. 1/2" seems too small and 1" too overboard.

It sounds like a fun project .. how far away (and area) is the places you want to have a snow-melt area ? I wonder how such a system performs with 6-12" of a snowfall in a day. Will you have to smash up existing concrete and re-form sidewalks ?

I like the idea of doing it with stairs ... they make panels v. pex for that. How many times have I tumbled down icy stairs ;once last winter - on wooden stairs and got a nice 4" splinter in my leg that still has not fully healed yet.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 12:18 pm

Retro makes an excellent point as to the capacity of the KA to support such a system - it will not be able to melt an unlimited area. Time to whip out that slide rule !

 
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Post by freetown fred » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 1:45 pm

W, you're bored aren't ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: ;)

waytomany?s wrote:
Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 8:08 am


I've been toying with the idea of installing a heated sidewalk since the KA6 I'm installing will be oversized for our current heating needs. What size pex and what kind? Is it possible to use antifreeze in the snowmelt loop only? What happens in a heat exchanger with that icy antifreeze?

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 7:18 pm

freetown fred wrote:
Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 1:45 pm
W, you're bored aren't ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: ;)
Nope, in pain. Anytime I can't do, I think. Not always the best thing, but I have given up on TV.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 7:26 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 12:18 pm
Retro makes an excellent point as to the capacity of the KA to support such a system - it will not be able to melt an unlimited area. Time to whip out that slide rule !
Roughly 4 ft wide stone dust walkway 35-40 ft long. Sidewalk from driveway to house. Thinking excavate down what 5" may be, 2" foam base and sides. Couple inches of sand with pex. Then pavers on top. Almost would like the stone dust on top but don't know if that would transfer the heat. I read 5/8 pex up to 300' loop with 9" spacing.


 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 8:51 pm

waytomany?s wrote:
Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 8:08 am
I've been toying with the idea of installing a heated sidewalk since the KA6 I'm installing will be oversized for our current heating needs. What size pex and what kind? Is it possible to use antifreeze in the snowmelt loop only? What happens in a heat exchanger with that icy antifreeze?
What actually are your heating needs? (in btu's or sq foot heating +DWH or not)

If you do go with the snowmelt system you'll probably want to run buck through the KA6 and turn up your feed and air, rice doesn't pickup very fast and the buck does a much better job from my experience at putting the heat out. My $.02 anyhow.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 9:04 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 8:51 pm
What actually are your heating needs? (in btu's or sq foot heating +DWH or not)

If you do go with the snowmelt system you'll probably want to run buck through the KA6 and turn up your feed and air, rice doesn't pickup very fast and the buck does a much better job from my experience at putting the heat out. My $.02 anyhow.
Current furnace is 90,000 and rarely run hard. 1498 square ft. Electric hot water, but will probably run exchanger once boiler hooked up, no reason not to I guess.

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sun. Jun. 04, 2023 8:52 pm

waytomany?s wrote:
Sat. Jun. 03, 2023 9:04 pm
Current furnace is 90,000 and rarely run hard. 1498 square ft. Electric hot water, but will probably run exchanger once boiler hooked up, no reason not to I guess.
Sounds like ka6 will work and have plenty to spare. What made you decide on the K6? did you get it used or something?

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Sun. Jun. 04, 2023 8:55 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. Jun. 04, 2023 8:52 pm
Sounds like ka6 will work and have plenty to spare. What made you decide on the K6? did you get it used or something?
Yes, very reasonable and within 25 minutes of home.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. Jun. 04, 2023 9:27 pm

waytomany?s wrote:
Sun. Jun. 04, 2023 8:55 pm
Yes, very reasonable and within 25 minutes of home.
How hard was it to move your home ?

 
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Post by pintoplumber » Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 9:14 pm

Like this?

 
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Post by LouNY » Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 9:33 pm

Heating a sidewalk is a nice project. One thing to consider is you will need at least a tempering valve as your water temp should usually stay under 110F. My preference would be to use something like a boiler mate hot water heater to run the outside heat that would make it easy to maintain a good temperature and allow easy adjustment of the out going temperature and provide a surge buffer and storage capacity. This would also allow for separation of an anti freeze outside loop and your boilers fill.

 
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Post by waytomany?s » Tue. Jun. 06, 2023 11:46 am

pintoplumber wrote:
Mon. Jun. 05, 2023 9:14 pm
DB8BCF18-3614-4FF9-9C29-77B4F6A888BA.jpegLike this?
Yeah. Like that.


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