Insulating, where to start, when to stop

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Retro_Origin
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sat. May. 13, 2023 8:55 pm

Hey everyone, so I would imagine a good portion (if not a majority) of us are burning coal not only because it is cheaper but because our houses are older. Tightening things up is a goal of mine but I'm a little cautious on where to start and when return on investment starts to plateau with a house that's only going to have so much resell value.

If I invest say $15,000 to insulate my house, and it saves me 1.5 tons a year (disregarding A/C cost) at $300/ton that's going to take over 33 years to pay off...and I don't think it will increase my house value by a largely significant amount.

Anyway my question is more steered at, are any of you with 80+ year old houses doing anything as involved as full wall cavity insulating? If not, what other than attic insulating, draft sealup, new windows and possibly basement insulating are you doing?

I've read and heard from some sources that you need to be careful tightening up an old house that might be used to being able to dry out due to the draftiness...my house has siding and 1/4" of blue board...er sheet at that thickness and probably no housewrap. To me, filling in the wall cavity just sounds like a way to trap inevitable moisture.

What lessons have you all learned as to how much improvement can actually be made and where it counts most without getting too carried away...


 
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Post by k-2 » Sat. May. 13, 2023 9:38 pm

Dont go over recommendation for your location ,you will never see a return. I pretty goods house is about all you can hope for when renovation old houses. I do it all the time. 15k is an enormous sum to invest in insulation. I cant imagine you would need half that much.

 
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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. May. 14, 2023 6:24 am

I suggest having an energy audit (usually includes a blower door test) done on your house. My counties/utilities offer this service for little to no cost to you. This will show you were all the low hanging fruit is. Next, meet with a reputable insulation contractor to discuss your options. As for ROI, agree with you that it can be long, but there are a few different ways to look at it.

How easy is it to sell a house that is heated with coal, even if it is not expensive? It might not be an issue in your area, but it certainly would be with mine. People want low utility costs, and hand's off. If you can get the heat load of your house down to a normal level, it makes it less painful to convert to a different fuel source down the road (such as a heat pump). Something else to think about about is burning a few less tons of coal per year is that much less coal and ashes you have to deal with. Even if not a huge expense, there is a time savings.

Here is the story about my house.

My house has had the walls insulated with blown-in cellulose since the oil crisis in the early 1970's. I have opened several walls in the last 10 years for various remodel projects, and haven't found any moisture/mold issues. There is no house wrap, and no vapor barrier on the interior. As for coal consumption, when I first installed the EFM we burned 8 tons per season. I spent a lot of time sealing up drafts, and installed some new windows. I got the coal consumption down to 6 tons, then we decided to put a 16x24 2-story addition on the house. When we did the kitchen addition we decided to have the addition spray foamed, and did the adjacent rooms as well since we were redoing the sheetrock anyway. As part of the same project, we also doubled the amount of blown in cellulose in the attic. Despite the house being about 1/3rd larger, our coal consumption has not changed.

Out of all of the improvements, the air sealing and attic insulation had the fastest ROI. I would not tear open your walls for spray foam, but it would be a great option for the rim joist in the basement.

 
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Post by k-2 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 11:36 am

What i do in old homes.
No1. Install the most economical heating source/fuel.
No2. Air seal
No3, Add insulation where accessible.
No4. Replace or repair old window and doors.

Extras would be basement or foundation insulation.

A flir camera can help identify open wall cavities . You can blow cellulose in thru small holes without tearing the whole wall apart.
Last edited by k-2 on Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by k-2 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 11:39 am

Rob R. wrote:
Sun. May. 14, 2023 6:24 am

How easy is it to sell a house that is heated with coal, even if it is not expensive? It might not be an issue in your area, but it certainly would be with mine. People want low utility costs, and hand's off.

Here is the story about my house.

My house has had the walls insulated with blown-in cellulose since the oil crisis in the early 1970's. I have opened several walls in the last 10 years for various remodel projects, and haven't found any moisture/mold issues. There is no house wrap, and no vapor barrier on the interior. As for coal consumption, when I first installed the EFM we burned 8 tons per season. I spent a lot of time sealing up drafts, and installed some new windows. I got the coal consumption down to 6 tons, then we decided to put a 16x24 2-story addition on the house. When we did the kitchen addition we decided to have the addition spray foamed, and did the adjacent rooms as well since we were redoing the sheetrock anyway. As part of the same project, we also doubled the amount of blown in cellulose in the attic. Despite the house being about 1/3rd larger, our coal consumption has not changed.

Out of all of the improvements, the air sealing and attic insulation had the fastest ROI. I would not tear open your walls for spray foam, but it would be a great option for the rim joist in the basement.
Pretty much the same story as mine. I went from 7 to 8 tons to 4 to 4.5. I dont think i could cost effectively do any better from there.though.

 
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Post by anthony7812 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 11:47 am

My last house was about R12 in the attic haha. I burned about 4 to 5 ton a year with the van wert. My new home is about double the square footage in the ice box area of Pennsylvania. It has R42 in the attic. I used 2 tanks of fuel oil this year and maybe 3 wheelbarrows of firewood around the Christmas freeze.
That’s a massive btu consumption difference and my only answer is the lack of insulation in my last home.

Anyone know anything about the insulated vinyl siding that’s now advertised? If siding replacement were happening would that even be worth the added cost ?

 
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Post by nut » Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:02 pm

I would apply foam panels under siding rather than insulated siding. Less leakage.


 
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Post by k-2 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:22 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Sun. May. 14, 2023 6:24 am
How easy is it to sell a house that is heated with coal, even if it is not expensive?
Yes another reason im switching to dual fuels. May be selling in the near future.
Right now heating with Nat gas is cheaper. Coal has doubled in a single year as gas prices fall changing the equation quite a bit. Coal continues to rise here in the heart of coal country. My daughter is right now changing from heating oil to gas. Ill keep the coal boiler in place for awhile until i see what happens but it will go out the door with me when i sell.

 
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Post by k-2 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:23 pm

nut wrote:
Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:02 pm
I would apply foam panels under siding rather than insulated siding. Less leakage.
Yes i never understood the siding they used to make with thin styrofoam attached and an air leak every 4 inches.

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:28 pm

Thanks everyone. I hope this conversation continues! This summer I plan to get more aggressive on sealing up around windows. I only have four inches of blown in cellulose in the attic floor, since that's pretty minimal is that floorspace worth losing to give more insulting properties to the house? Either blowing in more depth or using the foam sheets? Is it right to say if air can't escape as easy than it won't infiltrate as easily and so tightened up wall cavities are only as good as the lid on top and bottom?

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:30 pm

Rob R. wrote:
Sun. May. 14, 2023 6:24 am
I suggest having an energy audit (usually includes a blower door test) done on your house. My counties/utilities offer this service for little to no cost to you. This will show you were all the low hanging fruit is. ...
As for coal consumption, when I first installed the EFM we burned 8 tons per season. I spent a lot of time sealing up drafts, and installed some new windows. I got the coal consumption down to 6 tons, then we decided to put a 16x24 2-story addition on the house.
An energy audit is a excellent suggestion ... every house has a loss (% of heat going "out the windows, through the walls, etc) . See how changes effect that number. If audit has been done by others from the same company and people did spend $$ to get it lower, seek contact info of these people and call them up and ask if they actually got the result predicted. Most people are happy to discuss.

The change of 8 tons to 6 tons from first season to others was my experience as well but it had nothing to do with me doing any insulation...it was me getting better at running the stove (Hitzer 503). And the cold winter that I started with. I've had season coal usage ranging from 8 tons to 4 tons just from the milder v. colder seasons. Its normal for people to do something and then later say that what they did was the cause of improvement if it was or not.

For 15 grand an examination of ROI is needed. Look for 5 yrs for such a project

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:47 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. May. 14, 2023 12:28 pm
Thanks everyone. I hope this conversation continues! This summer I plan to get more aggressive on sealing up around windows. I only have four inches of blown in cellulose in the attic floor, since that's pretty minimal is that floorspace worth losing to give more insulting properties to the house? Either blowing in more depth or using the foam sheets? Is it right to say if air can't escape as easy than it won't infiltrate as easily and so tightened up wall cavities are only as good as the lid on top and bottom?
Summer ? To do the attic? I see zero issues with replacing or adding insulation to an attic in your situation..it would be a low cost thing. Blowing in , foam sheets, fiberglass rolls, etc. When I finished my basement I used faced insulation like ( https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-R-30-Kr ... /100320328 ) in the walls. Holy moly, look at the price ! I used a hand stapler .. I have an air stapler now... For an attic unfaced insulation is likely OK. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-R-30-Un ... /202585906 Much less cost. Recommend a Tyvek suit, full face respirator, etc. Fiberglass, you know...

Doing insulation in the attic in the summer. Someone likes punishment. Don't put a foot through the ceiling !

 
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Post by Retro_Origin » Sun. May. 14, 2023 8:02 pm

Haha I don't mean I chose summer to do it on purpose. We did four inches of blow in last summer, my question is- is it worth sacrificing the floor space of the attic to do more blown in but rather than between the plaster and floorboards, actually on top of the floor. My attic has tongue and groove just like the rest of the house, so what I blew in is under the floor

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Sun. May. 14, 2023 10:19 pm

Retro_Origin wrote:
Sun. May. 14, 2023 8:02 pm
Haha I don't mean I chose summer to do it on purpose. We did four inches of blow in last summer, my question is- is it worth sacrificing the floor space of the attic to do more blown in but rather than between the plaster and floorboards, actually on top of the floor. My attic has tongue and groove just like the rest of the house, so what I blew in is under the floor
Add it to the top of the attic (inside of course).

 
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Post by nut » Mon. May. 15, 2023 8:16 am

Pull up the floor boards. They sound like they could be used for finish flooring. Add 2" foil faced foam board and cover with plywood.


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