Remove Ceramic Floor Tile - Preserve Hardwood Floor Under?

 
NJJoe
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Post by NJJoe » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 10:14 am

Pretty much what the thread title says. Bought a fixer-upper with some horrid looking floor tiles. Nearly 1 inch thick grout between the tiles that is stained and almost black. Its not worth it to clean such grout and besides, the tile is ugly so it needs to go.

I've seen machines that can be rented at home depot etc... that are floor scrapers. Basically a big electric motor that vibrates a metal blade on a wheeled cart. The blade makes contact when pushed under a tile and breaks the mortar and tile into pieces allowing it to be removed.

I suspect there is hardwood floor underneath the tile. Found it when I removed the carpets and it looks like the hardwood continues into the tiled area. I'd like to preserve this floor if possible. Of course I know it would need to be refinished (sanded and polyed). I also understand that the tile removal process may introduce some damage into the hardwood underneath.

So the question is, what is the least damaging method of tile removal I can use that will allow me to preserve the hardwood floor underneath? Any damage that can be repaired with a typical hardwood floor refinishing is acceptable. I guess I would like to avoid deep gouging or breaking floorboards, major damage like that.


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 10:25 am

You are usually not going to apply tile directly too hardwood floors, it's going to crack all over the place. There is probably some underlayment under it.

I'd start by popping a tile in inconspicuous place and find out exactly what you are dealing with. For example in our house there was hardwood floors throughout and we suspected that was the case in the kitchen. Turns out it was tongue and groove but it was crap wood. It's 50's house, they put it in with the expectation thin tiles were going on it so they didn't use good hardwood. Think it was poplar.

Just a little bit of advice here, this is a lot of work if you want to do it right. The floors in our house were in really good condition. Too good, they still had the planer marks on them. I had to start with drum sander and 20 grit to remove enough material to get them even.

 
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Post by NJJoe » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 10:39 am

Richard S. wrote:You are usually not going to apply tile directly too hardwood floors, it's going to crack all over the place. There is probably some underlayment under it.

I'd start by popping a tile in inconspicuous place and find out exactly what you are dealing with. For example in our house there was hardwood floors throughout and we suspected that was the case in the kitchen. Turns out it was tongue and groove but it was crap wood. It's 50's house, they put it in with the expectation thin tiles were going on it so they didn't use good hardwood. Think it was poplar.

Just a little bit of advice here, this is a lot of work if you want to do it right. The floors in our house were in really good condition. Too good, they still had the planer marks on them. I had to start with drum sander and 20 grit to remove enough material to get them even.
Good idea on the underlayment. I now remember we pulled flooring at another house and there was a layer of luan stapled to the hardwood with tile/mortar set on top.

Very unique situation about your flooring. I'm getting a flooring guy after tile is gone so he would do that.

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 12:29 pm

Removing the tile itself should be easy...they should pop off with a hammer & chisel (or similar).

Then you'll see if its either on plywood or other type of subflooring. Remove mortar with double bladed cup wheel that fits on angle grinder. Like:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-4-in-Double-Row ... /202884364

They make them in different sizes...a small area 4", a large area 7". I do not recommend any type of scrapper except for a manual one for doing spots that the diamond wheel cannot get to.

Use something like this only if you hate yourself and want to get all pissed off and ruin your flooring job (they will FU your flooring--maybe OK for cement subfloor but not for anything else):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/ReciproTool-2-in-Detai ... /204248365

The amount of work to remove everything is not that hard if its just on plywood.

But the installer should have put something on top of the subflooring like Hardiboard or cement board that would attach to the subfloor for the tiles to go on top of. In that case, you should remove the board then remove any nails or screws and then grind the mortar that held that down (if any--supposed to be mortared down but who knows) away.

When grinding, use dust protection and vacuum often. The diamond cup angle grinder cup left my plywood in good shape, if was hardwood then I think all I would have needed to do was a light sanding and it would have been good to go.

I just did a tile floor removal and replacement myself.

 
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Post by Richard S. » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 8:51 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote: Use something like this only if you hate yourself and want to get all pissed off and ruin your flooring job (they will FU your flooring--maybe OK for cement subfloor but not for anything else):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/ReciproTool-2-in-Detai ... /204248365
That looks like a excellent way to destroy a reciprocating saw, it's not a jackhammer.
if was hardwood then I think all I would have needed to do was a light sanding and it would have been good to go.
An aggressive tool like that rotary disc or anything that is going against the grain other than a very light grain sandpaper is going to leave abrasion marks and even tear the wood. You can even get that sanding with the grain if the grit is coarse enough. They may only be 1/32 or 1/64 deep, it may not sound like much but that's a lot of material to remove from a very large hardwood surface especially if it's been drying for the last 100 years. You may even get it to look decent with light sanding, once you apply the stain they are going to pop out like a neon sign.

It's a lot of work to do a hardwood floor right.

 
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Post by Richard S. » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 8:57 pm

NJJoe wrote:
Very unique situation about your flooring. I'm getting a flooring guy after tile is gone so he would do that.
If the tile or any kind thinset/adhesive is adhered to the hardwood that is not going to come off easy without doing a lot of damage I would consult them before doing anything.

You're getting involved with something where trying to do some of the work yourself could cost you more.

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 9:19 pm

Get a wide, thin mason's chisel and a heavy hand sledge. They should pop off easily. Run the chisel with the grain. Or a hammerdrill on hammer with a similar chisel.


 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Oct. 12, 2015 11:43 pm

Richard S. wrote:
NJJoe wrote:
Very unique situation about your flooring. I'm getting a flooring guy after tile is gone so he would do that.
If the tile or any kind thinset/adhesive is adhered to the hardwood that is not going to come off easy without doing a lot of damage I would consult them before doing anything.

You're getting involved with something where trying to do some of the work yourself could cost you more.
I removed my thinset via the diamond cup on my previous post. Believe it or not it did not damage the plywood very much..looked very good afterwards. I was surprised.



^ video of process (this guy had a fancy vacuum attached angle grinder .. I used a $15 harbor freight one

 
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Post by Rob R. » Tue. Oct. 13, 2015 6:00 am

I had a hardwood floor refinished last year. Previously it was covered with carpet and plywood...plaster was used to float the seams of the plywood and take up some low spots in the floor. I peeled it all up with a mason's chisel, floor came out great.

 
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Post by NJJoe » Mon. Oct. 26, 2015 1:32 pm

Thread update:

Found that the tiles are stuck directly on to hardwood with some sort of adhesive or something like that. Doesnt seem to be any sort of mortar I've ever seen. Floor looks reasonably good underneath.

Tile needed 4-5 whacks with a standard hammer. I tried cleaning it up with a chisel and got some of the adhesive off.

My question is will this stuff come off with a typical floor sander? I have a guy coming in to sand the other floors and Im wondering if his machine will be able to remove this?

Pics: https://goo.gl/photos/qvWfVHA56KJFxLXw7

 
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Post by freetown fred » Mon. Oct. 26, 2015 1:44 pm

Looks like redimix white goop--cheap crap, not thinset. I doubt the guy will do it w/ his sander. try a ice scraper & sharpen the edge some-- scrape gently--should come off ok--sorry--no easy fix there.Once you get it mostly smooth, ya can thin set right over whats there. I know that's old school & not as complicated as people can make it--BUT--it works well.

 
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Post by NJJoe » Mon. Oct. 26, 2015 1:55 pm

freetown fred wrote:Looks like redimix white goop--cheap crap, not thinset. I doubt the guy will do it w/ his sander. try a ice scraper & sharpen the edge some-- scrape gently--should come off ok--sorry--no easy fix there.Once you get it mostly smooth, ya can thin set right over whats there. I know that's old school & not as complicated as people can make it--BUT--it works well.
No no I want to save the wood floor and remove the white goop. I don't want to install more tile

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Oct. 26, 2015 2:11 pm

NJJoe wrote:
freetown fred wrote:Looks like redimix white goop--cheap crap, not thinset. I doubt the guy will do it w/ his sander. try a ice scraper & sharpen the edge some-- scrape gently--should come off ok--sorry--no easy fix there.Once you get it mostly smooth, ya can thin set right over whats there. I know that's old school & not as complicated as people can make it--BUT--it works well.
No no I want to save the wood floor and remove the white goop. I don't want to install more tile
It maybe soluble in some type of solvent? Try (in small area): propyl cellosolve (aka ethylene glycol monopropyl ether) -- 10 min soak time and scraper afterwards.
Don't work? Try methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) -- heavily soak - 3 min - scrapper. Don't work? Toluene - 5 min soak time - scrape.
Don't work? Methlyene chloride (MeCl) - 1 min soak - scrape.

Degree of hazards --- cellosolve not too bad. MEK - possible headaches and flammable . Toluene possible carcinogen and flammable. MeCl - very carcinogenic use only with good ventilation [carbon tetrachloride is less volatile=less exposure] -- use MeCl/carbon tet on very small area and only to see if it works, if works then post back for possible less toxic alt [toluene usually but with much longer dwell time].

The adhesive maybe a hot melt adhesive too ... hot air gun to test ... if it melts then hot water/soap may emulsify it when in molten state allowing for wipe-up of adhesive.

Or mastic remover .. at home depot.

Not a good installation at all....

 
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Post by freetown fred » Mon. Oct. 26, 2015 2:49 pm

OK, then eliminate the new thinset over it step. As far as soluble--try just plain hot water if it's what I think. It'll work with the water & scraper--GENTLY scraping.
NJJoe wrote:
freetown fred wrote:Looks like redimix white goop--cheap crap, not thinset. I doubt the guy will do it w/ his sander. try a ice scraper & sharpen the edge some-- scrape gently--should come off ok--sorry--no easy fix there.Once you get it mostly smooth, ya can thin set right over whats there. I know that's old school & not as complicated as people can make it--BUT--it works well.
No no I want to save the wood floor and remove the white goop. I don't want to install more tile

 
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Post by freetown fred » Mon. Oct. 26, 2015 2:51 pm

By the way--good for you, I bet that T&G will be real pretty--after doing above--then sand it out.


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