Rain Gutters or French Drains?

 
rberq
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Post by rberq » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 3:54 pm

I have never dared to put rain gutters on my house for fear of excessive snow melt causing them to fill with ice. But I’m finally getting my house properly insulated. My cellar is quite damp even when it doesn't rain, and sometimes when it rains hard I get a couple inches of water in the low spots. The foundation is large field stones, with granite slabs above grade. There is one roof valley in particular that dumps a lot of water into a corner where it is hard to slope the soil away from the house. If you go down cellar near that corner, you can see the water just flowing in around the rocks.

There seem to be two schools of thought on getting the water away from the house:
(1) Standard rain gutters, which should be OK after insulation is done.
(2) French drains along the drip line of the roof.

Yes, I know, I could have done the French drains years ago, I just didn’t know it was an option. :oops: I tend to think the French drains would be less maintenance and trouble than gutters in the long run. But I’m puzzled by those inexpensive black corrugated/perforated drain pipes – it seems like the water should just exit through the bottom perforations and sink into the ground like it does now. Advice / opinions / experience, anyone?


 
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Post by NJJoe » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 4:07 pm

Are we talking about the same thing here? French Drains require excavation, lining the trench with gravel and installing one of those perforated pipes to drain the water. Not sure what you mean by French Drain installed along the drip line of the roof... As explained to me by an engineer, French Drains are used to direct water away from a foundation; i.e. water that is flows towards your house down a grade.

if the water near your foundation comes from the roof runoff, it would be far cheaper to install gutters on the roof line.

 
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Post by scalabro » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 4:13 pm

If you go with gutters, have commercial sized downspouts installed. They are less likely to get clogged and will flow lots of water.

 
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Post by WNY » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 4:22 pm

I had gutters put on with the new roof 8+ years ago and never had a problem with them ripping off. we've had some ice build up at times, but usually not too bad.

If you have good attic insulation, the stuff doesn't melt as much and you don't get the ice build up.

You can also roof rake , long pole with a a puller on the end to pull the snow off the ends of your eves if you get a lot of snow, thats what I do (and need to today or tomorrow, we just got 10+ inches and it helps keep the ice from forming at the ends.

 
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Post by Keepaeyeonit » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 4:23 pm

I have gutters on my house but the french drain thing seems good too but I would think It will add a tremendous amount of water to your footer drains due to the fact It would be so close to the house unless your overhangs were long.The water will like anything find the easiest way to flow so It will drain through the pipe providing Its put in right( the trench needs to have a pitch to It) and back filled with the right stone(I use 57 for back filling drain pipe).you will get some water seeping into the ground but not enough to worry about and most people don't realize that even sdr drain pipe with holes only down one side needs to be installed with the holes down facing the bottom of the trench. If you go with the French drain you may want to get with the sock to help keep the pipe cleaner longer. Keepaeyeonit

 
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Post by rberq » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 8:48 pm

NJJoe wrote:Not sure what you mean by French Drain installed along the drip line of the roof... it would be far cheaper to install gutters on the roof line
Yes, bad choice of words – drain would be installed in the ground, where the drip line is. I haven’t priced either method. But I would need gutters in a couple places anyway, like above the doors and where the garage roof drips and kills my wife’s flowers. Just hate to start hanging more stuff off my house…
Keepaeyeonit wrote:the french drain thing seems good too but I would think It will add a tremendous amount of water to your footer drains
Ha! You guys with new houses may have footer drains. I have big rocks for a foundation weighing probably one to three tons each, with granite slabs set on edge above grade. Footer drains are for wimps. :P
Keepaeyeonit wrote:If you go with the French drain you may want to get with the sock to help keep the pipe cleaner longer.

Yes, I have read about those. Apparently more expensive to buy but less expensive to install. I have also read that it is better to use smooth PVC pipe rather than the cheap flexible corrugated stuff, so you can run a snake through to clean it out.

 
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Post by coalkirk » Mon. Feb. 02, 2015 9:59 pm

Definitely gutters. Even with drip line drains under the roofline your basement will still be wet.


 
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Post by Lu47Dan » Tue. Feb. 03, 2015 10:15 am

rberq, two questions.
1.) Do you have enough fall to properly pitch your drain tile to daylight? Proper pitch being between 1/8" - 1/4" per foot of run. Anymore than 1/4" per foot, the water can run away from the solids in it, and any less than 1/8" per foot the water is not following fast enough to carry the solids along. Either of these scenarios can lead to clogging of the tile.
2.) are your cellar walls cut stone, stacked field stone or rubble type construction. Digging in the area of rubble type can be a problem but can be done. Cut stone and stacked field stone are the easiest of the old foundations to work around, as they are more stable than the rubble type is.
Now, onto the main subject. If you wish dry up your cellar than digging out the foundation and installing a footer drain around the perimeter, with a membrane on the outside of the walls is your only real recourse to a wet basement. Adding gutters to the prevent the water from getting the chance to soak into the ground will help a lot, but if the water is coming from another source, the gutters will not cure the problem.
Either way you do this, you will need to dig some ditch, it is best to have the downspout dumping into a tile to carry away the water, this tile can empty out on the lawn away from the house. Having the downspouts terminate on top of the ground, close to the house is just asking for problems. Terminating the tile to daylight away from the house is the best way to handle rain water. You can run separate tiles from each downspout or you can have branch tiles that come off a main tile to the downspouts. I have all my roof gutters run into a tile system, I went with 6" main line with 4" feeder branches run from the downspouts to the main. Adding the tile to the roof gutter system dried up a couple of spots around the house where the rain water would set and soak away before I added the tile system.
If you are able to physically able to dig the ditches than you can save some money by doing it yourself. I helped a friend install tiles to his downspouts on a lot that you could not get a mini excavator into the backyard, we used a front tile tiller to loosen the soil and than you could shovel it out easily. We turned the two tines that stick out, in to the center and than the tiller would easily follow the ditch line once it was established.
Have the gutters sized by a reputable company also, If you are going to do this than you really only wnat to do it once. The gutter has to be sized to match the sq.ft. of the roof section it services, if you size them too small than they will overflow in heavy rain. \
Dan.

 
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Post by Rick 386 » Tue. Feb. 03, 2015 6:21 pm

I really don't know which one is best for you up theah......but every time we come to Maine,I don't see a lot of gutters on houses. Most just seem to use the metal roofs and cover the plants with boards to keep the sliding snow from crushing them.

And as was mentioned, how many trees are nearby which would allow leaves to cog the gutters and downspouts ??

Rick

 
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Post by scoobydoo » Tue. Feb. 03, 2015 6:34 pm

WNY wrote:I had gutters put on with the new roof 8+ years ago and never had a problem with them ripping off. we've had some ice build up at times, but usually not too bad.

If you have good attic insulation, the stuff doesn't melt as much and you don't get the ice build up.

You can also roof rake , long pole with a a puller on the end to pull the snow off the ends of your eves if you get a lot of snow, thats what I do (and need to today or tomorrow, we just got 10+ inches and it helps keep the ice from forming at the ends.

Check this roof rake or shovel out

 
rberq
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Post by rberq » Tue. Feb. 03, 2015 6:57 pm

scoobydoo wrote:Check this roof rake or shovel out
Very clever, but I wonder if it would work for someone who only speaks English. :o

 
rberq
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Post by rberq » Tue. Feb. 03, 2015 7:05 pm

Lu47Dan wrote:rberq, two questions.
1.) Do you have enough fall to properly pitch your drain tile to daylight?
2.) are your cellar walls cut stone, stacked field stone or rubble type construction.
Yes, plenty of fall to work with, but I didn't realize the proper slope was quite so critical. That's good to know.
Cellar walls are stacked field stone. That's a clever idea about using the tiller to loosen the soil. It might be the best way for the back side of my house where the ground slopes away pretty steeply in a some places. But wouldn't it be best to have the sides of the trench pretty well compacted?

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Sun. Feb. 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Large stone on the drip line 3/4"...
2' wide drip line center...
dig down below frost line on the outside...
pitching up to 8"-12" against the foundation...
line the bottom with pond liner running up the foundation wall 6"...
up the outside ditch wall 12" but keeping below the foundation height...
perforated pipe in the trench at the low side...
creating a bowl that if the perforated pipe fails to work will spill AWAY from the house...
drain to daylight...
Move plants out front of this system...
A-frame protect small shrubs...
I too prefer the straight pipe vs the coils...
Town mandated a drainage plan on my property...
I got a Masters in Drainage...

 
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Post by rberq » Sun. Feb. 15, 2015 6:21 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:drain to daylight...
Everybody says "drain to daylight", but why? Why not drain into a pit or trench filled with crushed stone, but covered over and seeded like the rest of the lawn? Must be a reason .... :?:

 
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Post by waldo lemieux » Sun. Feb. 15, 2015 6:37 pm

drain to daylight really means to drain to a spot lower than the bottom of your ditch. IF YOU DRAIN TO A SEEPAGE PIT then it ok so long as its lower than the lowest point your trying to drain. However if your pit becomes full water will back up your drain and you wont know it till its too late. If you always drain to daylight (literally) then you don't have to be concerned about that ;)

waldo


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