Righting the wrongs of the past.

 
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EarthWindandFire
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Post by EarthWindandFire » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 9:29 am

Almost thirty years ago, my Grandfather passed away. I grew up hearing stories from him and my father about a double-barrel shotgun that my family had that was used to hunt ducks on Long Island Sound. Later, the gun made it's way to our farm in Dutchess County NY (the farmhouse is pictured in my avatar) where it was used to shoot down old dead tree limbs by my great-uncle. When the farm was sold in the mid 1970's, the gun was brought to my grandfathers house where it supposedly sat, hidden away, until 1992. I never actually saw the shotgun. But when my grandfather passed away, I asked my Aunt if she found the gun and she said yes. I was too young to question her, in fact, why my father never demanded the gun I'll never know, as he passed away in 2001. It's possible the gun was gone before then, my aunt and uncle may have taken it and other family heirlooms long before my grandparents passed away.

I'm sure some of you have been through the same thing, a relative takes or outright steals an object or family heirloom. I made a half-hearted attempt to get it back. I sent my aunt and uncle a letter in 2003 or 2004. But now I'm more determined as my Aunt is around 80 years old now.

Was her motivation to take the gun financial, did the gun have real value as an antique firearm? Based on my research, antique guns have little value unless attached to a famous person or event.

I'm financially able to have an attorney contact them with the hope of resolving this without court proceedings. Maybe the threat of being subpoenaed and having to travel from Virginia to New York would be enough to coerce them to relinquish the gun. I could offer them a substantial sum of money, as much as ten thousand dollars. But they could reject that as they are not in need of money.

What do you guy's think. Any suggestions or thoughts. Am I wrong - trying to right the wrongs of the past?
Last edited by EarthWindandFire on Thu. Apr. 30, 2020 8:16 am, edited 3 times in total.


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 10:03 am

Yes, antique guns have value. Like all antiques, some more than others.

Growing up my brother, a competition shooter, taught me to shoot. He had a trap field set up in his back yard out in Suffolk County, Long Island. His wife's Grand Father had been a national trap champion. Handed down through the family were two Marlin model 28 pump shotguns Grampa had won at an early 1900's trap competition in the Hamptons. One was a "field grade" and the other a "presentation" grade. Matched sets like those were common awards back then. We used those two for trap.

His house was broken into and the two shotguns and two WWII surplus 1911 .45 pistols stolen. A year later he got a call from a Country Police Detective that his four stolen guns had been recovered when they caught the two teens doing more up a burglaries. My Brother was told that he could come down and reclaim all four. When he got there it was just the two pistols, which are registered and have serial numbers. No one at the property room knew anything about two antique shotguns,... that did not have serial numbers that could be traced. My father knew a top Country Cop through church and asked him to investigate. With nothing ever turned up.

Paul

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 10:28 am

I've got an antique Holland and Holland. I doubt it's worth a hundred bucks because I'm convinced it's a fake. That said, most antique shotguns you see today are what we would call "hardware store guns." Most of these are not worth much and dangerous to shoot as they were designed for paper cartridges and cannot handle modern ammo.

 
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Post by EarthWindandFire » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 11:16 am

Unfortunately, I don't recall the brand even if I were told. Time has dimmed my memory somewhat but the bitterness over the loss has only increased. I doubt that the gun was English, most likely of more modest manufacture. I would be willing to consult a firearms expert which might help determine more details. I could see myself settling for an identical gun if I'm unable to acquire the actual gun from my aunt and uncle (assuming they still have the gun).

 
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Post by gaw » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 1:36 pm

Without knowing the make and model as well as condition a value is unknown however it appears you have a lot of emotional value in it.

Personally I would not even worry about it, water over the bridge. I doubt you see it that way but if you go through the trouble to actually get posession of that gun will it really deliver what you are expecting?

 
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Post by freetown fred » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 1:47 pm

Plus--that lawyer will probably end up costing you more then the shot gun is worth--now--- if you're talkin emotional value--have at it. Like Glen, in my world it would be water over the bridge.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 2:02 pm

If your really set on having it or one like it, why not contact the Aunt and ask her is she does still have it. Then explain how you'd like to have it because it means so much to you about your Father and Grandfather ?

Her attitude may have changed in 16 years.

Paul


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 2:25 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 10:28 am
I've got an antique Holland and Holland. I doubt it's worth a hundred bucks because I'm convinced it's a fake. That said, most antique shotguns you see today are what we would call "hardware store guns." Most of these are not worth much and dangerous to shoot as they were designed for paper cartridges and cannot handle modern ammo.

FYI, paper cartages have nothing to do with if a shotgun is too old to safely shoot or not with modern smokeless powder.

There were millions of now antiques shotguns built to withstand smokeless powder "paper carriage" shells up until plastic hulls started to become popular the 1960's. I still have the recipe my Brother and I used to reload Remingtons - one of the first to use plastic hulls and wads back then.

I grew up shooting shotguns from the early 1900's. Marlins built the 20's, Remington model 11, and Winchester Model 12, all pre WWII with modern shells for both hunting and clays, including a beat up 20 ga. Crescent "hardware store" double of my Brother's that I fixed the too-soft steel cocking pins and shot sheet with a lot.

It's the very early 1900 on back, twist-welded barrels, commonly called "Damascus barrels", that were not meant for smokeless powder shells. Smokeless powder replaced black powder in the 1890's and has been in wide use since 1900.

FYI, Federal still makes paper hulls and many trap competitors, who don't reload, swear by them a softer shooting and throw better patterns.

Paul

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 2:36 pm

I was told in no uncertain terms not to use modern ammo in it. I know nothing about shotguns so I would have to research the item before attempting to fire it. Probably something I will ever do. I have no idea how old it is but it does not have Damascus barrels. I'll post up some pics later, tell me what you think.

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 3:34 pm

OK, took some pictures but for some reason they won't post as I get an error message. I inherited this thing when my brother died last year (as well as the rest of his arsenal, he never married). I remember when he got it the hinge was a little sloppy and he had some concerns about that. I just checked it and it's tight as it should be. I'm convinced that it was sloppy when I recieved it so either I managed to repair it in my sleep or it healed itself. While taking the pics, I thought the bore was a little small for a 12 gauge so I found a shell and dropped it in. Needless to say it rattled around in the bore a lot so it isn't a 12 gauge. A little research and it turns out the thing is actually an 8 gauge gun. That's kind of big, no? Perhaps it's a black powder gun?

Update: I found the shell dimensions for big bore shotguns and it measures to a 10 gauge. It is probably a black powder gun and why I was warned about using modern loads. Does that make sense? The bores look good.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:01 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 2:36 pm
I was told in no uncertain terms not to use modern ammo in it. I know nothing about shotguns so I would have to research the item before attempting to fire it. Probably something I will ever do. I have no idea how old it is but it does not have Damascus barrels. I'll post up some pics later, tell me what you think.
Antique guns are like antique cars lots of "experts" who don't know history, but are very sure of what they say. :lol:

The Winchester model 12 started production 1912. The Remington Model 11 started production about 1905. The ones I used were made in the 20's. The two Marlin model 28 my brother and I used for trap were made in the 20's.

The newest of what we shot was that little 20ga Crescent SXS hardware store gun and a Mossberg bolt action 410. Those two made sometime between the wars.


My gun club president would sometimes shoot skeet with a Winchester 12 ga. "hammer" pump shotgun - the predecessor to the Model 12. A lot of the guys at the gun club are gun collectors and would occational let loose with them.

One of the best skeet shooters I had the privilege of shooting with, was a very old farmer who showed up still in his barn overalls and boots for a Tuesday night "open shoot" for non-members. He had an old short barreled surplus pump shotgun that had been auctioned off by the NYS prisons. What many Cops used to call a "riot gun". No recoil pad just a steel plate butt. He 'd carry a box of shells around to the stations, put the box on the ground beside him, loaded the gun and would shoot. He hardly ever missed. It looked like a police version of the WWI "trench guns" the Germans tried to get banned. :D

Plastic hulls didn't become widely available until the mid 60's. So your looking at least a span of about 70 years where "paper cartridges" were made with modern smokeless powder (high pressure).

And as I said, paper hulls are still made. https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/gold-med ... 1+7.5.html

I never saw the difference in how well they preform. And since I reload, paper hulls end up costing more in the long run when compared to how many more times you can reuse plastic hulls. Plus, roll crimping required for paper hulls adds more work with a separate operation, than plastic folded crimps done right on the same progressive loading machine.

Paul

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:11 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 3:34 pm
OK, took some pictures but for some reason they won't post as I get an error message. I inherited this thing when my brother died last year (as well as the rest of his arsenal, he never married). I remember when he got it the hinge was a little sloppy and he had some concerns about that. I just checked it and it's tight as it should be. I'm convinced that it was sloppy when I recieved it so either I managed to repair it in my sleep or it healed itself. While taking the pics, I thought the bore was a little small for a 12 gauge so I found a shell and dropped it in. Needless to say it rattled around in the bore a lot so it isn't a 12 gauge. A little research and it turns out the thing is actually an 8 gauge gun. That's kind of big, no? Perhaps it's a black powder gun?

Update: I found the shell dimensions for big bore shotguns and it measures to a 10 gauge. It is probably a black powder gun and why I was warned about using modern loads. Does that make sense? The bores look good.
I've been getting the same error message the past two days when trying to post any pictures, I thought maybe it was on my end - I guess not.

When the switch was made to smokeless powder it caught on rather quickly across the whole spectrum of guns of all calibers and gauges.

10 gauge was a popular size for duck hunters. They still make some 10 gauge shotguns (ouch!) and ammo because quite a few turkey and duck hunters still like them. It's the more is better mentality a lot of guys have. :lol: When my brother and I would shoot trap with the 12 gauge Marlins, his one-eyed Father In Law would stand off to the side and about ten yards behind us with his little 20 Winchester model 12. Whenever we missed he'd hit them from further away with the fewer pellet load of that 20 gauge,... then grumble about our wasting clay pigeons. :lol: It's not how many pellets you fling but where ya fling them. ;)

Paul
Last edited by Sunny Boy on Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by coaledsweat » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:17 pm

The older paper shells were shorter I'm told and one would risk overpressure with a modern shell. Either way, I'm never going to shoot it. I'll never shoot most of what he left me for that matter.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:30 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:17 pm
The older paper shells were shorter I'm told and one would risk overpressure with a modern shell. Either way, I'm never going to shoot it. I'll never shoot most of what he left me for that matter.
Not true as far as differences in hull length or over pressure switching to plastic verse paper hulls. The difference in paper verse plastic pressures is so small it's meaningless. And shogun pressure are so low they are measured on a different scale than rifle and pistol pressures. Plus, about 20 year ago SAMMI got the ammo makers to lower the pressures even more with new powder developments while keeping the same velocities.

The chamber pressures of a 2-3/4 inch, 3 inch, and 3-1/2 inch, are all about the same. It's the felt recoil that changes because the shot charge weight changes.

Being a 10 gauge, safe or not, you likely would NOT want to shoot it anyway. Shotgunners refer to them as, "Kills at one end, and maims at the other". :lol:

Paul

 
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Post by grumpy » Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 6:46 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:
Wed. Apr. 29, 2020 9:29 am
Almost thirty years ago, my Grandfather passed away. I grew up hearing stories from him and my father about a double-barrel shotgun that my family had that was used to hunt ducks on Long Island Sound. Later, the gun made it's way to our farm in Dutchess County NY (the farmhouse is pictured in my avatar) where it was used to shoot down old dead tree limbs by my great-uncle. When the farm was sold in the mid 1970's, the gun was brought to my grandfathers house where it supposedly sat, hidden away, until 1992. I never actually saw the shotgun. But when my grandfather passed away, I asked my Aunt if she found the gun and she said yes. I was too young to question her, in fact, why my father never demanded the gun I'll never know, as he passed away in 2001. It's possible the gun was gone before then, my aunt and uncle may have taken it and other family heirlooms long before my grandparents passed away.

I'm sure some of you have been through the same thing, a relative takes or outright steals an object or family heirloom. I made a half-hearted attempt to get it back. I sent my aunt and uncle a letter in 2003 or 2004. But now I'm more determined as my Aunt is around 80 years old now.

Was her motivation to take the gun financial, did the gun have real value as an antique firearm? Based on my research, antique guns have little value unless attached to a famous person or event.

I'm financially able to have an attorney contact them with the hope of resolving this without court proceedings. Maybe the threat of being subpoenaed and having to travel from Virginia to New York would be enough to coerce them to relinquish the gun. I could offer them a substantial sum of money, as much as ten thousand dollars. But they could reject that as they are not in need of money.

What do you guy's think. Any suggestions or thoughts. Am I wrong trying to right the wrongs of the past?
What gun is this your talking about.. or don't you know?


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