.257 Roberts?

 
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Post by unhippy » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 6:46 am

Anyone here used a .257 roberts on deer? any opinions on it?

The reason i ask is that i am looking at rebarreling a No4 Lee Enfield rifle to 257 roberts rimmed (using 7x57R cases as basis to form the 257 cases) as an all rounder to shoot everything from wallabys to elk (yes we have both here, and all sorts in between).

still mulling ideas but when i look at what i want out of a rifle ballistics's wise, i keep coming back to the .257 roberts.....and if i use a rimmed case it will work in a Lee Enfield action which is my favorite bolt action.....and the fact that i will need to handload means i can keep the pressure to what the Lee action can handle.


 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 7:28 am

Based upon a quick review of its ballistics, with 115-120 grain spire points it should serve you nicely. In an older gun I would not consider using the newer +P rated rounds. If you reload, holding it at an upper limit of 45,000 CUP would probably be wise. IMR-4350 or H-4350 might be good initial choices for powder. But you likely have different brands of powders in NZ.

That said, I've always gotten my best accuracy with single based "stick" powders, and specifically with slower burning powders that fill the case to where a bit of compression occurs when the bullet is seated. With that in mind, IMR-4831 or H-4831 might be the ticket. Likely a tad less pressure and velocity, but more likely to fill up the case to the point where the round compresses it a bit. You can vibrate or lightly tap the case to compact the powder if necessary.

Hodgdon makes H-4831 in the standard "long" sticks version, and also in a "SC" (short cut) version with shorter sticks, that permit more to fit into the case before you need to vibrate/tap or seriously compress. Ballistics and pressures are "said" to be pretty much close to identical, but I have only ever used the long sticks, so I can't say if accuracy is identical.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 8:25 am

My worst accuracy has always come from "ball" type double based powders. YMMV

I admittedly don't have a lot of experience with double based 'stick' powders. The greatest advantage of double based (nitrocellulose plus nitroglycerin) powder over single based (nitrocellulose only) is that the former may last nigh-on forever, whereas the latter decays and turns acrid (and acidic) and becomes unstable over time.

One thing I've noticed is that double based powders tend to get away from you pressure wise much quicker than do single based powders when you accidentally go a smidge over the intended quantity limit. I.E., they tend to be much touchier and more unpredictable, and perhaps a bit more dangerous as a consequence. Again, YMMV

 
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Post by KLook » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:26 am

Not sure about the Elk, bullet placement and shot angle will be critical. That said, I had a .257 Ackley Improved *40 on a Belgian Mauser action. It was a nice cartridge and pushed the performance up to the 25-06. Yes I am a handloader. Or was.
I have never been a fan of overly large calibers. But I have seen the results of poor shooting/decision making with calibers to small for the game(?) or the shooters ability.

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Post by Vbull » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:39 am

Although I don't use a .257 my neighbor has used a .250-300- Savage successfully on whitetail deer for years. I've used a 6.5x55 for close to 30 years and feel the base cartridge you are looking at might be fine for what you will be using it on. The 7x57 is versatile and if hand loaded has a wide range of bullets. That was what I was looking for originally those many years ago but ran into a Winchester M70 featherweight in 6.5x55 before finding a 7x57. Good luck on whatever you chose, they're all fun.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:48 am

When I was actively reloading my pet project was my 6.5mm LWS. A "one of" round and chambering (bearing my initials), based upon necking down and then blowing out a 30-06 (or 270 Win, 280 Remington, etc...) type cartridge to about as far as one can possibly take it, with the shoulder blown way forward and with the shoulder slope highly removed so as to achieve the minimum acceptable neck length for bullet grip. More radically blown out than a 6.5mm Ackley Improved, for higher internal case capacity.

Best accuracy was achieved with very slow burning military surplus IMR-5010 (50 caliber BMG powder, single based, stick) atop a 140 gr. Speer SP. Three rounds into an inch at 200 yards, more than once (off a bench rest vice, I'm not that good...). A highly compressed charge that required tapping or vibration to fit it into the case. A real flame thrower. ~3,100 FPS confirmed with my chronograph. Pressure unknown, but add any more and there was evident primer flattening. 24" barrel length.

 
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Post by KLook » Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:22 pm

Never tried for groups at 200 with the .257 Ackley.....it shot about 1/2 inch at 100 depending on how I shot that day. That same action and double set trigger is now set up with a Pac-Nor semi varmint in .270 WIn and will shoot under an inch all day long. I think it is 22 inch. My other hunting set up is a Browning Medallion A Bolt in .270 Win also. For a light gun with no barrel it seems, it will shoot with the custom gun. I have shot groups under 1 inch at 200 and 3 shot groups at 300 in about 2 inches.
Sadly, I don't live where I can enjoy them anymore, my reloading stuff is in storage. I just go kill a bunch of little deer with a muzzleloader each fall in Virginia. And those things are amazing.......

Kevin

I was going to add that the 7x57 is about the same as the .270. I almost went that route with the new barrel on the custom gun.


 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 5:30 am

I'm obviously a big fan of 6.5 mm, as it permits bullets in the 129-140 gr. range, which are likely a bit more suitable for Elk. Is it too late, or can you have it bored to 6.5 mm (.264 caliber) instead of .257? Expanding the necks of the .257 Roberts cases to 0.264 will be a simple task, but then the downside is that you will not be able to fire commercially available rounds. Unless perhaps 6.5 mm for this casing does hit a commercial match. Would this make it a 6.5x57mm Mauser perhaps??? And for that matter, is the .257 Roberts a commercially loaded cartridge, or is it merely a neck-down of the 7mm Mauser round? I'm admitting my complete ignorance of standard European cartridge sizes here.

 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:25 am

Ah, I just noticed that you are using rimmed brass. Until now I had been presuming rimless (because I didn't read your post well enough the first time around). The .257 Roberts I had been looking at on the net were rimless cartridges. There is (as you mentioned) a commercial Mauser cartridge called the 7 x 57mmR. The recommended upper CUP limit for that brass is 41,000 CUP. That would be the only slight change with regard to reloading. And now I know that you indeed will be reloading.
Last edited by lsayre on Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by unhippy » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:28 am

lsayre wrote:
Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 7:28 am
Based upon a quick review of its ballistics, with 115-120 grain spire points it should serve you nicely. In an older gun I would not consider using the newer +P rated rounds. If you reload, holding it at an upper limit of 45,000 CUP would probably be wise. IMR-4350 or H-4350 might be good initial choices for powder. But you likely have different brands of powders in NZ.
yeah +P in a Lee Enfield is not something i want to have close to my face.....i was kinda looking at the lighter end of the projectile range that would be suitable for deer....bullets that are in the 80 to 100gr area and have a high BC like the barnes ttsx or the hornady gmx type thing.....45,400 cup/49,000psi is pretty much the safe limit for a No 4 action and is what i would limit myself to.

LOL as for powder...if you can get, it so can we...it just costs more due to freight etc....plus we get some stuff that you don't....but your not missing out on much....and as for the south african powders, be glad you don't get them.
KLook wrote:
Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:26 am
Not sure about the Elk, bullet placement and shot angle will be critical. That said, I had a .257 Ackley Improved *40 on a Belgian Mauser action. It was a nice cartridge and pushed the performance up to the 25-06. Yes I am a handloader. Or was.
I have never been a fan of overly large calibers. But I have seen the results of poor shooting/decision making with calibers to small for the game(?) or the shooters ability.

Kevin
I know what you mean about bullet placement...i hunted commercially for a number of years and bullet placement really affected my paycheck....it had to be head or neck shots to be worth carrying out....no body shots as that damaged too much meat and also messed up the lungs which i needed intact for the carcass to be more easily certified as TB free.

I did alot of that work with a .222 and its with some (i think anyway) justified pride that i can say i have never left a wounded animal out on the hill.
KLook wrote:
Sun. Apr. 08, 2018 9:22 pm
That same action and double set trigger
Lol a double set trigger is the only reason that i would consider rejoining the 'mauser mafia'... the .222 i mentioned above was a Bruno Fox with a double set trigger....unfortunately the Lee Enfield action doesn't lend itself to double firing lanyards....i do however have on the shelf a match-grade two stage fully adjustable trigger....so i may have to slum it with that.
lsayre wrote:
Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 5:30 am
I'm obviously a big fan of 6.5 mm, as it permits bullets in the 129-140 gr. range, which are likely more suitable for Elk. Is it too late, or can you have it bored to 6.5 mm (.264 caliber) instead of .257? Expanding the necks of the .257 Roberts cases to 0.264 will be a simple task, but then the downside is that you will not be able to fire commercially available rounds. I'm admittedly not knowledgeable about rimmed bolt action rifle cartridges, so perhaps 6.5 mm for this brass does hit a commercial match. ???
The 6.5x57 is a fairly popular caliber in europe with pretty good ballistics 92gr @ 3200fps (RWS ammo), right in the ballpark of what i'm looking for....the 6.5x57R however is somewhat anemic in comparison with the same bullet only doing 2700 fps.....and i can't find any info that i'm happy with that explains why they are so different when they are the rimless and rimmed versions of the same case with case capacity differences that fall into the range of manufacturers variations....

Rimmed versions of common calibers are normally downloaded a bit due to them being traditionally used in break-open rifles and drillings....but that amount of downloading is far more than what is normally done.... and i can't find why so i'm leaning towards the 257 that i can get load and pressure data for that i trust

 
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Post by unhippy » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:36 am

lsayre wrote:
Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:25 am
Ah, I just noticed that you are using rimmed brass. That changes everything, as until now I had been presuming rimless (because I didn't read your post well enough the first time around). The .257 Roberts I had been looking at on the net were rimless cartridges. There is a commercial Mauser cartridge called the 7 x 57mmR. Would that be your starting point? The recommended upper CUP limit for that brass is 41,000 CUP.
Yeah the 7x57R would be my start point......the 41,000CUP limit is due to the 7x57R being used in alot of rifle/shotgun combination guns in europe.....as alot of the drillings have the rifle barrel on the top of 2 shotgun barrels it puts the rifle barrel above pivot point of the guns action so when the rifle barrel fires the pressure is trying to open the gun.....if the 7x57R is used in a bolt action it can be loaded up to normal 7x57 rimless pressures.

The bit i don't get is why the same thing can't be done the the 6.5x57R.....but its not

 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 7:02 am

unhippy wrote:
Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:36 am
The bit i don't get is why the same thing can't be done the the 6.5x57R.....but its not
Does this essentially mean that reliable 45,000 CUP reload data is not available for the 6.5x57R? Clearly if a .257x57R can be safely loaded to 45,000 CUP for use in bolt actions, then the same holds true for 6.5x57R.

 
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Post by unhippy » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 7:11 am

Yeah i would have thought so....until i was reading some old norma (who fullhouse loads everything, their 7x57 loads are hot and the same for both rimmed and rimless) reloading data and they have it loaded down the same as everyone else....with a note not to try matching 7x57 powder charges....so something is off

Edit: that was meant to read 7x57 pressure.....
Last edited by unhippy on Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 7:13 am

unhippy wrote:
Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 6:28 am
LOL as for powder...if you can get, it so can we...it just costs more due to freight etc....plus we get some stuff that you don't....but your not missing out on much....and as for the south african powders, be glad you don't get them.
I'm guessing that you may have access to a number of extruded (what I've been referring to as "stick") double based powders that are more rare and expensive, if not outright impossible to find here.

 
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Post by unhippy » Mon. Apr. 09, 2018 7:30 am

yeah we have access to a few different double base powders...ADI powder has a number of DB powders....

we are a bit lucky here in that we have a smallish reloading community that is known to be somewhat educated in the art of roll your owns and tend not to jump straight to doing dumb s@$t and blowing their guns up.... so alot of the time when the manufacturers have a new powder to Guinea-pig on the unsuspecting we will get it along time before its available 'off the shelf' even in the US


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