Almost Ready to Cut the Cord

Post by **StokerDon** » Sun. Aug. 05, 2018 3:03 pm

Lightning wrote: ↑
Sun. Aug. 05, 2018 9:41 am
I went to nocable.org and got a report with my proper address. How is it that I can get WPSU which is indicated by the red dot (meaning difficult) and WIVB indicated with a green dot (meaning easy) but not the ones in between. I must be missing something.

I suspect that there is a multi path issue meaning the signal is being reflected and arriving at the antenna at different times which is confusing the decoder.

Still learning, but I have a feeling this can be solved, somehow. Like I mentioned earlier, I can see the channel scan hang up for a few seconds right where it's trying to bring in those other towers.

Hummm,,,, So this is why there hasn't been any progress on the Axeman Anderson.....

By the way, another factor to consider is the transmit frequency of the TV station you want. You will get better reception if that frequency is closer to the center of the band that the antenna is tuned for.

I don't know how your stations are distributed up there frequency wise, but down here they are all over the place.

-Don

Post by **Lightning** » Sun. Aug. 05, 2018 3:32 pm

Actually, the three most important towers are grouped around close frequencies and range channels 34-40, also they are arranged within a shallow angle and close together, 39-45 miles away. I'm researching antenna ganging techniques to make better signal gain.

I love this technical stuff.
I may have found another hobby lol

Post by **StokerDon** » Sun. Aug. 05, 2018 3:42 pm

Channels 34 to 40 is just there number. You should find out what there actual operating frequencies are. I use this website.
https://nocable.org/availability-report/zip/19127 ... delphia-pa

Here is a website that I use to determine if I have line of sight and how far the TX antenna is.
http://otadtv.com/index.html

-Don

Post by **Lightning** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 3:45 am

Thanks fellas. Here at 3:30AM I seem to see the best signal quality number of 47 on WIVB (ABC network). Tried a channel scan and still see it hang up a few seconds around those other channels that it's trying to lock on to. I know it wants to lol. It's being stubborn. It's like on the brink of pulling them in.

So in my antenna ganging research, from what I've learned so far I think lol, is that putting two of these side by side it's suppose to narrow the beam and increase gain, which is good because that should fix the multi signal path issue. Seems that way anyways. I wanna try it.

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 11:30 am

I did mention this earlier, but will bring it up once more...
Did you place any earth/grounds yet? Besides safety, Best reception depends on that piece of the puzzle.
May change the results before moving on to ganging...and adding to overall installation costs.

Someone mentioned a 'handheld' signal meter/locator, don't know if that is cost prohibitive or not...
Maybe a phone app???

Post by **Lightning** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 11:52 am

Thanks Larry, I haven't grounded anything yet. I was under the impression that it was just for lightning strikes, but maybe your right. Maybe if I ground everything my results may change. I will try it.

The phone apps show where the towers are for pointing, but that's about it as far as signal is concerned. There are some very detailed maps on TV fool that show signal availability per tower. I've been looking at them also. But, they are predictions and don't account for a variety of other variables so accuracy could be off some.

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 11:56 am

Grounding is for both draining static and for the best reception.

Even important on signals carried in on RG6 from a satellite dish or cable co..

Gound the mast/antenna and ground RG6 at point of entry...copy what is there already.

warminmn · Post by **warminmn** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 1:00 pm

McGiever, thank you for reminding me about the signal meter. OK, I looked it up and found the device I saw online. I am unsure if it will work for this purpose but one of you folks will know.

It is a MFJ-259 frequency counter. One example of it in use starts at 5:07 in this video
(I use one of the modulators the video is about is how I first found this)

Here is a site with a whole bunch of similar gadgets, perhaps something that would work. There are online manuals on the site somewhere. http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Categories.php?sub=0&ref=7

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 3:38 pm

Might need to use a "smaller hammer" (preamp)...bigger is not always better...

The TV signal from your TV antenna becomes weaker as it travels through the coax cable to your TV. The farther it must travel the weaker it becomes. Signal splitters also weaken the signal. The more times the signal is divided the weaker it becomes. The splitter itself creates the signal loss, it doesn't matter if the TV's are on or off or even if all of the connections on the splitter are used the loss still occurs, it's called insertion loss. The line loss that occurs getting the signal from the TV antenna to the TV or TV's can be overcome by installing a preamplifier near the TV antenna amplifying the signal before the signal loss occurs.
The degree a signal amplifier increases the signal strength is measured in decibels (dB). The higher the amplifiers dB rating is the greater the strength of the signal is increased.
"Wait a minute, I know what your thinking "I'll just get the biggest high output amplifier I can get and that will solve all my problems. I have one word for you, OVERLOAD.

When too much signal is present overload can and does happen. Signal overload can occur in the amplifier, the TV tuner or both. Use the guidelines below, to select the proper amplifier for your system.

Selecting the correct TV antenna amplifier is a simple mathematical process.

Add-up the total amount of signal decibel loss that will occur as the signal travels from the TV antenna to the TV with the longest cable run. Add the signal loss from the cable length and any splitters between the antenna and the TV. Choose the amplifier with the dB gain rating that is from 5 to 10dB greater then the total loss.

EXAMPLE: 100 feet of coax cable and a 2 way splitter have a signal dB loss of 8.7 dB. Also VCR's and other such devices that the signal travels through create minor signal losses.
A perfect amplifier match for the above example would be the Winegard AP 8700. The 8700 amplifier has a gain rating of 19dB.

AVERAGE LOSS PER 100 FEET OF RG6 COAX CABLE IS 5 dB

2 way splitter                                                                      3.7 db
3 way splitter                                                                      7.5 db
4 way splitter                                                                      7.5 db
6 way splitter                                                                      13  db
8 way splitter 13.5 db

It would certainly be an easy to do test to just remove that preamp to see what difference it makes since you're not looking at much losses in your setup... That "WIVB" (ABC network) could instead be your "weakest" not "strongest" signal getting through.

grumpy · Post by **grumpy** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Over driving the front end radio can be a problem....

Post by **Lightning** » Mon. Aug. 06, 2018 9:43 pm

I've tried both, with and without the preamp which didn't result with any additional progress. I really do appreciate the suggestion though.

Post by **Lightning** » Mon. Aug. 13, 2018 10:15 am

Just to give you guys an idea of how deep into the fringe I'm in, here is one of the towers I can get (ABC).. The aqua colored circle is where I am. According to these signal maps I shouldn't be able to get anything lol. You'll have to look for Olean on the big map, Its south of the tower. (39 miles)

.JPG | 376.8KB | WKBW Total.JPG

.JPG | 232.6KB | WKBW zoom.JPG

Here is the other tower I can get (Penn State PBS)
Olean is north of the tower. (69 miles)

.JPG | 567.6KB | WPSU Total.JPG

.JPG | 302.7KB | WPSU zoom.JPG

Here's the tower I'm hoping to get (CBS) I found out CBS was moved further north of me closer to buffalo, so the apps I've been using are not current.

.JPG | 351KB | WIVB Total.JPG

.JPG | 325.2KB | WIVB zoom.JPG

I haven't yet "fleshed out" attempts from the roof top with the signal amp being used. Still considering ganging two of these antennas to increase gain about 2.5db. Like mentioned, I can see the channel scan stalling right on a few of these towers but there just isn't quite enough to lock on.

On another interesting note, I took this antenna to my buddies house about 15 miles further south of here and we actually pulled in WGZR out of Buffalo. Although, He is at the top of a mountain about 700 feet higher than me.

Here is WGRZ (NBC) 45 miles from my location which has a VERY similar signal pattern to WKBW (ABC that I can get) so this should be very doable.

.JPG | 442.2KB | WGRZ Total.JPG

.JPG | 320.7KB | WGRZ zoom.JPG

BigBarney · Post by **BigBarney** » Tue. Aug. 14, 2018 12:31 am

This charts shows where I am and what I can get , but with a good antenna

I get about 60+ stations. Sometimes even more when good weather and low humidity

which absorbs a lot of the signal. We got more before HD tv .

I am on the escarpment above Lake Erie (571') at an elevation of about 400' higher so

an easy shot over the lake.I can see Canada on a clear day.

https://nocable.org/availability-report/aqwz-ripley-ny-14775

On a good day I get Bowling Green, and Detroit , because I have an antenna

which is aimed west toward Erie Pa . We also get a lot of Canadian channels like London ON

Hamilton ON Kitchener ON . Some channels have as many as 7 channels on one frequency

and also a lot of Hockey on Toronto (Hockey Night in Canada).

http://www.wadldetroit.com/tv-schedule/

http://www.wadldetroit.com/program/

Wish I could get this all the time.....

I cannot depend on these because it depends on weather.

I use a Marathon or an Antop antenna with an amplifier, my original antenna had a different

name but I think they were bought out.

We tried the large antenna but the wind damaged them too frequently so these were a better

choice. I am going to try another antenna (same as we already have) aimed NE to see if I can get

more and more reliable reception.

I get some channels not on the list like TVO ( like Public Television) and channel 20 (1,2,3) .

From Buffalo I get 29,17, and 4, Erie (13 channels) Can't get 2 or 7 from Buffalo .

BigBarney

Post by **Lightning** » Tue. Aug. 14, 2018 10:50 pm

Just curious, do you guys get better reception at different times of the year due to tree leaves and/or a blanket of snow across the landscape?

grumpy · Post by **grumpy** » Tue. Aug. 14, 2018 11:38 pm

Lightning wrote: ↑
Tue. Aug. 14, 2018 10:50 pm
Just curious, do you guys get better reception at different times of the year due to tree leaves and/or a blanket of snow across the landscape?

All these things can make a difference.