Finlands 90 GWh power plant

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BigBarney
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Post by BigBarney » Tue. Jul. 13, 2021 3:04 pm

We need to able to use storage of energy in other ways than all batteries...

Thermal storage may be a lower cost alternative ....90,000,000 KWhr

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/million-cubi ... d-begin-co

https://interestingengineering.com/scientists-dev ... n-a-decade

Smaller systems are also available for homeowners....

https://www.treehugger.com/sunamp-heat-batteries- ... ng-5116606

BigBarney

 
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KLook
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Post by KLook » Tue. Jul. 13, 2021 5:02 pm

But is it made from unicorn farts? unobtainium? What is it's lifecycle and what do you do with it after? How toxic is it? Oh so many questions from a dummy like me.

Kevin

 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Tue. Jul. 13, 2021 8:53 pm

It's simple system, you heat water and then store it for heating. Solar thermal is quite effective and it looks like they will also be capturing waste heat (.e.g Air Conditioner). Appears the volume of water will be enormous and they will heat it through the summer, utilize it in the winter to heat buildings. The one downside is the infrastructure is going to be costly however it's not a short term thing either.

 
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KLook
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Post by KLook » Wed. Jul. 14, 2021 7:58 am

Ok, it will hold about 264,100,000 gallons of water. It takes 1 Btu to raise the temp of 1 lb of water 1 degree F. That is at 39 degrees but lets not get hung up over that. I assume the average ground temp is about 55 degrees so to take it to 284 degrees will require 229 Btu's/lb. Water weighs 8.33 lbs/gal. at room temp, once again, not getting hung up in technicalities. This is 2,199,953,000 lbs of water. So it will take that # times 229 to bring it up to the stated goal....... Way past my calculator as was the last number. But I think it is 503,789,237,000 Btu's or lets just round it up to 504 Billion. I cannot calculate for heat loss to the surrounding bedrock, and I cannot comment on the piping system to handle water safely at that temp. Assuredly they would not pump it around to everyone at that temp. A line break would be instant steam. I also cannot comment on expansion of that mass of water and containing it. How much collection is required to actually heat that mass and the surrounding rock to that temp? Once again, heat striking the earth is not waste heat. It heats us up and the other critters and fauna that require it. So you lower the overall local temp to put heat in your buildings?
Many many questions to be addressed before this magnificent project happens. How about the waste heat collection system? How does that function with out freezing up in the winter?

Kevin


 
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Richard S.
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Post by Richard S. » Wed. Jul. 14, 2021 8:48 am

KLook wrote:
Wed. Jul. 14, 2021 7:58 am
Once again, heat striking the earth is not waste heat. It heats us up and the other critters and fauna that require it. So you lower the overall local temp to put heat in your buildings?
if you are going to argue that capturing the suns heat that will eventually be returned to the atmosphere is going to have an environmental impact then you would necessarily have to argue that releasing heat stored for millions of years in fossil fuels would be even worse.

Neither of these arguments hold water because both are an infinitesimally small amount relative to what the sun delivers to the earths surface. If you were able to capture all the energy delivered to earth, within a few seconds you would capture enough to equal what we have used with fossil fuels in the last 100+ years. The power of the sun is that much.

 
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Post by BigBarney » Wed. Jul. 14, 2021 4:57 pm

In a lot of these projects the storage is beneath the area to be heated so very little

is wasted because it decreases the amount of heat needed by the area.

Here is another project that is starting up... 20,000 MWhr system...

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/malta-siemens-ta ... ity%20Dive

Klook;

This high temperature water would not be circulated to the user until it ran a turbine

which extracted the energy as electric then the lower temperature condensate would

be used for space heating or put back in the resevoir to be reheated. Most of these

systems are like a coal boiler primary and secondary loops so as to deplete the heat

in the most efficient manner.

We can only store much energy as ready to use electric (batteries) and need long term storage

to be able to supply the grid. Here is some long term storage ideas.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/malta-siemens-ta ... ity%20Dive

BigBarney

 
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KLook
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Post by KLook » Wed. Jul. 14, 2021 8:49 pm

Richard, the amount of energy delivered to the Earth overall is staggering. But if it was so dense we would have no need to heat anything. The weakness is the weakness. And it is the very atmosphere that traps the heat we have instead of radiating out into space. We have a balanced system and I think it self corrects over time, but the sun controls the show. I agree that we cannot remove enough energy to make a difference. Anymore then we can control carbon emissions enough to make a difference.
BB, There are so many unknowns with this it is amazing. It is just another futuristic science project like my flying car in the 60's. I actually hope it works, but it is not for everyone or everyplace. I suggest we tap into Yellowstone and commercialize the National Park for energy production. And any other hotspring area in the world to mitigate the effects of GW.

Kevin

 
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Post by johnjoseph » Fri. Jul. 16, 2021 11:03 pm



 
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KLook
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Post by KLook » Sat. Jul. 17, 2021 8:47 am

You keep putting crap up JJ, but they are about as affordable, available and usable as a space shuttle. IT has to be for the average joe to make the dreams come thru. Other wise, it is the carrot and the stick. Bumblebees can't fly either according to science.

Kevin

 
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Post by johnjoseph » Sat. Jul. 17, 2021 12:04 pm

BUMBLEBEE FLIGHT DOES NOT VIOLATE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j& ... ATYTHrhch1

Bumblebees Can’t Fly

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j& ... zUPATL7KmG

This myth people keep quoting about how bees shouldn't be able to fly is scientifically incorrect — here's why

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j& ... c3&ampcf=1




https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/all-the-flying ... velopment/



 
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KLook
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Post by KLook » Sat. Jul. 17, 2021 8:27 pm

Novel toys, never for general use. Yawn, let me know when it is commercially available.

Kevin

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